Apart from works?

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"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2

First, how do you justify the goodness of God or morality by your belief? The short answer is you can't, which is why your belief doesn't work to begin with. Second, there are two problems with your interpretation of Romans 8:1-2 here.

Problem #1. - You left out the part of the verse in Romans 8:1 that says "Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Here is the entire verse. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " (Romans 8:1). This means in order to NOT be under the "Condemnation" you have to (a) be in Christ Jesus and (b) Walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (sin).

Problem #2. - Romans 8:2 mentions two types of Laws. It mentions:

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Which is obviously a New Testament Law).
(b) The Law of Sin and Death (Which is obviously the Old Testament Law).
What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus?
Just go back to verse 1 and it tells you.
It says there is no Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1).​

Yet, you are under the false misunderstanding, that you are not under any kind of Law. Yet, Romans 8 says that as a result of following the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, it will result in this, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).

Did you catch that? It says that the righteousness of the Law will be fulfilled in us if we walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh (sin).

bcbsr said:
Sounds like what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Is one truly believing in Jesus if they do not do what He says? No.
Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).
Jesus says not everyone says unto Him Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of God but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21).
The will of God (or the will of the Father) is our Sanctification or our holiness (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3).
Jesus says if a man does not do what he says he is like a fool who builds his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). The analogy here is that you are living in that house when the storm comes and you will be killed in that house when the storm crushes it.

bcbsr said:
As for "free will", hasn't that issue be impact by regeneration as John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9
But John is not talking about imputed righteousness here (The imputed righteousness of Christ is only for initial salvation when a saint first believes or accepts Christ as their Savior. However, to have the blood continually cleanse of all sin after that point, the saint needs to walk righteously in the light of Christ. See 1 John 1:7). For if you were to read 1 John 3:7 it says be not deceived, he that DOES righteousness is righteous. 1 John 3:10 says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

So we see that he that DOES NOT righteousness is not of God and neither is he that LOVES NOT his brother. Yet, you are saying that this individual can be of God because no sin can separate you from God.

No mention here is given of how often you must not love your brother in order for it to be a problem with God. In fact, we know that not loving your brother even once is a problem. For 1 John 3:15 says he that hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

bcbsr said:
So it's not possible for those born of God to continue living a lifestyle of sin, not due to person "effort", but rather as the inevitable consequence of having been born of God.

So you believe that true saints are characterized as living a holy life. So if one day you find yourself enslaved into a lifestyle of sin, does that mean your previous walk with God in holiness was not true?

bcbsr said:
Furthermore Paul writes, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39
Paul is talking about external things of this world here. Paul is not talking about the internal decision to choose sin within that list. Nowhere does Paul say that continually abiding in horrible sins the rest of your life cannot separate you from the love of God.

bcbsr said:
Seems to me "nor the future" to be saying "Once Saved Always Saved"

And given that you and me are part of the creation and it says, "nor anything else in all creation" which says to me that once a person is in Christ it's not up to him to decide to leave.

Well, chances are you wouldn't even know about Once Saved Always Saved if it wasn't for others telling you about it. It is not something that came to you when you were studying the Scriptures on your own. It is not natural and it goes against morality or the goodness of God and one has to ignore and twist the majority of the Bible to make it work. For there are many warnings to the New Testament believer. Ignore them at your own peril.


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Was the car "given" with the condition you had to drive it correctly?

In the case you present: it is not the giver of the gift (the free car) taking the car back. You could still have the car but not be allowed to drive by civil law, which is not the giver’s fault.

Jesus did not ignore reality when he gave a real world example to illustrate spiritual truth. We know this because the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable of her own (Matthew 15:27).

bling said:
In the parable of the “soils” the sower never takes the (word) good news message back from any of the soils.

The “soil” with weeds in it and the good seed is sown on it must not continue to provide support to weeds, if it does the good news message will not grow and the soil will cause it to wither away.

The rocky soil is itself the problem, not wanting the message to go beyond just the surface.

The soil in the path is not accepting the message (the charitable gift) to begin with.

Jesus tells us the seed is the Word of God. This is sown in the heart of the believer. For the first person did not receive the Word whereby it could save them and the devil took the Word out of their heart before it could be sown. This was due to a lack of their unbelief. The rest in the Parable are believers. Two fell away from God for various reasons. One fell away due to not enduring persecution and the other fell away to the cares and riches of this life. The Bible warns us elsewhere of telling us to overcome so as to have life and to stay away from riches (Which can pierce us threw with many sorrows). Also, at the end of the chapter it hits you over the head that sin can separate the believer from God. Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth his angels to remove all in HIS KINGDOM who work iniquity (sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

bling said:
We are all evil and big time sinners,

Sorry, I do not see that as a decription of my life or other believers that I know. This is also not the description of the life I see in other followers of Jesus Christ as described in the New Testament, either.

bling said:
but the good news (seed/gift) has gone out to all of us. This gift (seed) hits (the soils) each one of us and we can use it or let it wither away (discard it), but it is not the sower taking it back.

No. The analogy here is that the seed (the Word) was choked in the thorns, etc. If God's Word does not abide in a person they do not even have faith. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

bling said:
The sowing story in the Gal. 6: 6-9 might be better in understanding how this works.

When you read Galatians 6:6-9, you also have to read Galatians 5:19-21 that says that those who commit various certain sins like lying, murder, drunkenness, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


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1. the issue of saving is not based on NOT sinning but on trusting and believing christ.
it is not your performance, but on trusting christ that determines your salvation.

Then why did Jesus say, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).
Why did Jesus say, not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will not enter into the Kingdom but he that does the will of the Father? (Matthew 7:21). Does doing the will of the Father sound like belief alone or some kind of action on your part? Well, good news is that 1 Thessalonians tells us the will of the Father. For 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God (i.e. the will of the Father) is our Sanctification or holiness. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see God. This is actually doing righteousness for 1 John 3:7 says be not deceived he that does righteousness is righteous.

geralt said:
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is NOT condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

This is not only believing in the person of Jesus Christ but it is believing everything Jesus taught and said, too. For Jesus Commanded us to do many things. In other words, if one is not doing what Jesus says, are they really believing in Him or trusting Him? No. This is evident when Peter failed to believe in Jesus that he could truly walk on the water with Jesus. Jesus questioned his belief or faith in regards to what Jesus wanted him to do. If Peter believed in Jesus he would have walked on the water. So doing what Jesus says shows that you truly believe and trust in Him or not.

geralt said:
2. A believer NEVER separates himself from Christ even though he sins (not intentionally), the believer confesses and always comes back. There is such a thing as growth, or growing or christian maturity - if you haven't noticed yet.

1Jn 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No Christian maturity? What? What about Paul saying that he had to talk to the Corinthians as in babes in Christ who could only receive the milk of the Word and not the meat of the Word? (See 1 Corinthians 3).

As for 1 John 1:9: This is the first part of repentance. The second part of repentance is forsaking one's sin (See 1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah 3:6-10, we learn that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God (for seeking mercy of their sins with God) and to forsake their evil or sin. Then God noticed that they turned away from their wicked ways and then God did not bring Wrath upon them (that He said He was going to bring upon them before).

geralt said:
Christ never separates himself from His children, he forms and guides them. God's love binds us to Him and He will never leave His children.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord

3. What about it ? Give specifics.

Two things you will notice that are not in that list. "You" and "your sin." Nowhere does Romans 8:38-39 say that "you" cannot separate yourself from the love of the Lord of your own free will choice and it does not say that committing horrible grevious sins done against God will not separate you from the love of God, either. One has to add those words to such a passage in order to make that wrong line of reasoning work.


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1. There is no conflict. Isnt it obvious ? Because they did not believe in Christ, or rather they believed in a different version of Christ. TRULY believing in christ results in a NEW CREATION.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

'Doing the will of the Father' is the de-facto nature of the new creation, for no other reason because GOD is working you And not just working with you.

2. Christians are not born in perfect maturity, there is such a thing as growth. Otherwise there is no point of God 'working' or we 'walking'. But it does not destroy the standard that salvation is by:

God saving-> person new creation- >believing in Christ -> and then we grow.

3. The problem here is you failing to differentiate the difference between the old nature and the new nature. You think the person who is a new creation will have the option to separate himself from God. Impossible. You fail to see that:

If God saves persons -> He also changes them -> He delights in living his life coram deo

for the simple reason that 'WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP', God does not just guide His children, He forms them.


how can a person who is God's own work even leave God ? think about it. and it all starts in believing in Jesus.

Then why did Jesus say, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).
Q1. Why did Jesus say, not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will not enter into the Kingdom but he that does the will of the Father? (Matthew 7:21). Does doing the will of the Father sound like belief alone or some kind of action on your part? Well, good news is that 1 Thessalonians tells us the will of the Father. For 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that the will of God (i.e. the will of the Father) is our Sanctification or holiness. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see God. This is actually doing righteousness for 1 John 3:7 says be not deceived he that does righteousness is righteous.

Q2.
This is not only believing in the person of Jesus Christ but it is believing everything Jesus taught and said, too. For Jesus Commanded us to do many things. In other words, if one is not doing what Jesus says, are they really believing in Him or trusting Him? No. This is evident when Peter failed to believe in Jesus that he could truly walk on the water with Jesus. Jesus questioned his belief or faith in regards to what Jesus wanted him to do. If Peter believed in Jesus he would have walked on the water. So doing what Jesus says shows that you truly believe and trust in Him or not.

No Christian maturity? What? What about Paul saying that he had to talk to the Corinthians as in babes in Christ who could only receive the milk of the Word and not the meat of the Word? (See 1 Corinthians 3).

As for 1 John 1:9: This is the first part of repentance. The second part of repentance is forsaking one's sin (See 1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgement against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. In Jonah 3:6-10, we learn that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to God (for seeking mercy of their sins with God) and to forsake their evil or sin. Then God noticed that they turned away from their wicked ways and then God did not bring Wrath upon them (that He said He was going to bring upon them before).

3. Two things you will notice that are not in that list. "You" and "your sin." Nowhere does Romans 8:38-39 say that "you" cannot separate yourself from the love of the Lord of your own free will choice and it does not say that committing horrible grevious sins done against God will not separate you from the love of God, either. One has to add those words to such a passage in order to make that wrong line of reasoning work.


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bling

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Jesus did not ignore reality when he gave a real world example to illustrate spiritual truth. We know this because the Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable of her own (Matthew 15:27).

That does not address the question, so let me rephrase it: Did God truly give us undeserving and unconditional gifts which we own, so we can choose to give them away or does God still have at least some ownership of these gifts so we cannot give them away?

Jesus tells us the seed is the Word of God. This is sown in the heart of the believer. For the first person did not receive the Word whereby it could save them and the devil took the Word out of their heart before it could be sown. This was due to a lack of their unbelief. The rest in the Parable are believers. Two fell away from God for various reasons. One fell away due to not enduring persecution and the other fell away to the cares and riches of this life. The Bible warns us elsewhere of telling us to overcome so as to have life and to stay away from riches (Which can pierce us threw with many sorrows). Also, at the end of the chapter it hits you over the head that sin can separate the believer from God. Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth his angels to remove all in HIS KINGDOM who work iniquity (sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

This is also not addressing the issue.

The issue is “does the parable of the soils support the doctrine of; “God taking away man’s salvation” or “does it show the “Good Harvest” can be lost (like in Gal. 6:9), by the soil itself or the sower of the seed giving up on being good soil and/or a good sower? Without taking the analogy to far: God is providing the seed, but the soil can control how rocky it is or how many weeds it has in it. We control the type of soil we are going to be.

Sorry, I do not see that as a decription of my life or other believers that I know. This is also not the description of the life I see in other followers of Jesus Christ as described in the New Testament, either.

Like an alcoholic, if we sinned we are sinners, but we quit sinning, are forgiven and do good stuff.

No. The analogy here is that the seed (the Word) was choked in the thorns, etc. If God's Word does not abide in a person they do not even have faith. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Do not blame God for the word not continuing to grow in the individual (weedy soil). They might have had “faith” enough to accept the word to begin with, but are now nourishing the weeds and not the word.

When you read Galatians 6:6-9, you also have to read Galatians 5:19-21 that says that those who commit various certain sins like lying, murder, drunkenness, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Right! no problem! But it is not God taking the Kingdom away from them, but it is they that give up on the Kingdom (Gal. 6:9). They are sowing and nourishing weeds (lying, murder, drunkenness, etc.)
 
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1. There is no conflict. Isnt it obvious ? Because they did not believe in Christ, or rather they believed in a different version of Christ. TRULY believing in christ results in a NEW CREATION.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

'Doing the will of the Father' is the de-facto nature of the new creation, for no other reason because GOD is working you And not just working with you.

2. Christians are not born in perfect maturity, there is such a thing as growth. Otherwise there is no point of God 'working' or we 'walking'. But it does not destroy the standard that salvation is by:

God saving-> person new creation- >believing in Christ -> and then we grow.

3. The problem here is you failing to differentiate the difference between the old nature and the new nature. You think the person who is a new creation will have the option to separate himself from God. Impossible. You fail to see that:

If God saves persons -> He also changes them -> He delights in living his life coram deo

for the simple reason that 'WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP', God does not just guide His children, He forms them.


how can a person who is God's own work even leave God ? think about it. and it all starts in believing in Jesus.

I highlighted in blue and bolded the word in Ephesians 2:10 for you that tells us that we do have free will. We are not automatic love slaves of God when we accept Him as His Savior. If that was the case, then why doesn't God just save everyone then (if He takes away our free will after accepting Him)? Or does God only save those He knows who will endure in righteous living until the end?


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there is no conflict at all, it simply points to the mystery. that GOD works in those he saves, while at the same time they are willingly obedient to his call.

1) God does not take away our free choice, in fact he gave us the better choice when he creates a new person (born again).


God doesn't save everyone, it is written in the pages of scripture. God administers justice to others, while he gives grace to others as well. In both, God's glory is magnified.

2) God's saving is not dependent on people enduring, otherwise saving becomes a reward and not a gift (grace). God's people always endure to the end simply because it is the better choice.


I highlighted in blue and bolded the word in Ephesians 2:10 for you that tells us that we do have free will. We are not automatic love slaves of God when we accept Him as His Savior. (1) If that was the case, then why doesn't God just save everyone then (if He takes away our free will after accepting Him)? (2) Or does God only save those He knows who will endure in righteous living until the end?

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That does not address the question, so let me rephrase it: Did God truly give us undeserving and unconditional gifts which we own, so we can choose to give them away or does God still have at least some ownership of these gifts so we cannot give them away?

The point is that you are ignoring reality to make your belief work here, so the question doesn't apply to what the Bible says nor what real life says. The Canaanite woman used a continued real world example in reply to Jesus's real world example in illustrating spiritual truth. But your question here attempts to ignore this, though. So it is a question based on a belief that does not exist. It is a fantasy. The Bible teaches that sin separates a person from God (Regardless of whether you are a believer or not). So just as there are consequences to sin committed in the real world, there are serious consequences to sin in the after life that would not be good for any person (And it would not be a loss of rewards, either). Jesus said, if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire. I sincerily doubt Jesus was only talking to unbelievers here. Jesus's goal is to get people to be "believers" and not "unbelievers." The Scriptures were written for believers. So Jesus is also talking to believers when he spoke what he did in Matthew 5:28-30.

bling said:
This is also not addressing the issue. The issue is “does the parable of the soils support the doctrine of; “God taking away man’s salvation” or “does it show the “Good Harvest” can be lost (like in Gal. 6:9), by the soil itself or the sower of the seed giving up on being good soil and/or a good sower? Without taking the analogy to far: God is providing the seed, but the soil can control how rocky it is or how many weeds it has in it. We control the type of soil we are going to be.

I did address the issue. The Parable is clearly talking about salvation. At the end of Matthew 13, we see in verses 41-42 hit us over the head that those who are in Christ's Kingdom who commit iniquity (sin) will be gathered up by Christ's angels and cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

bling said:
Like an alcoholic, if we sinned we are sinners, but we quit sinning, are forgiven and do good stuff.

But can one abide in sin and still be saved? Sure not.

For if a person lives in sin day in and day out, then they are living in sin and proving their loyalty to the enemy and not God. If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion and confesses and forsakes such a sin, then they are on the road to recovery in overcoming sin. There is a difference.

An example of the life of a Faith Alone Salvationist or an Anti-Moralist would sort of be like an alcoholic who claims he does not have a drinking problem and yet he continues to drink himself into oblivion. An example of a true believer faced with the same choice would be like an alcoholic who may stumble once or twice on his road to recovery in becomng sober.

bling said:
Do not blame God for the word not continuing to grow in the individual (weedy soil). They might have had “faith” enough to accept the word to begin with, but are now nourishing the weeds and not the word.

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. We gain life by hearing the gospel that comes from God's Word. But remember the rich man? He was not willing to sell all that he had in order to follow Jesus. This is the comparison to the man in the Parable in Matthew 13 who fell away due to the cares and the riches of this life. The picture given to us is that the seed was choked by thorns. This means the seed (Which initially gave this person life) has now stopped this seed from living anymore. For the analogy of the first individual who did not receive the seed of the Word was an unsaved person. For the wicked one took the seed out of their heart before they could believe. So this is talking about salvation. It is very simple in what it says. The only reason you are seeking it to say something different is because somebody has placed an idea into your mind that would not naturally come to you if you were studying the Scriptures on your own by praying to the Spirit so as to give you the understanding.

bling said:
Right! no problem! But it is not God taking the Kingdom away from them, but it is they that give up on the Kingdom (Gal. 6:9). They are sowing and nourishing weeds (lying, murder, drunkenness, etc.)

No. Nowhere does the parable say that the wheat is condoning the weed's wickedness. The weeds are false believers and they are wicked because their deeds are evil or sinful. A weed is a weed because of it's destructive nature. A wheat is good because it provides nourishment for the purpose of good and not evil. Come on now. God is good and He does not condone evil. This is basic elementary stuff here. Good people do good and bad people do bad. It's very simple. You would not know the good guys from the bad guys when you go out into public, or watch a movie, or turn on the news without their actions showing forth that they are evil or good.


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there is no conflict at all, it simply points to the mystery. that GOD works in those he saves, while at the same time they are willingly obedient to his call.

1) God does not take away our free choice, in fact he gave us the better choice when he creates a new person (born again).


God doesn't save everyone, it is written in the pages of scripture. God administers justice to others, while he gives grace to others as well. In both, God's glory is magnified.

2) God's saving is not dependent on people enduring, otherwise saving becomes a reward and not a gift (grace). God's people always endure to the end simply because it is the better choice.

Again, I will ask you. Does a believer have free will to turn away from God after they are saved? Or does God only save those in whom He knows will endure in righteousness to the end by their free will choice? If that is the case, then it really is not free will. For what about the people who genuinely choose to follow God for a short time but then later decide to go back to their old life of sin? Or do you believe that people cannot be good for a time and turn bad?

Yes, I believe there is an "Elect" or a "Chosen" type people. God knows who His true children are. But God's Word also teaches that there are those who endure for a while and are only saved for a short time. This why the Bible gives us many warnings. The Bible speaks to us as if we have a free will choice to choose this day in Whom will serve. For example: Jesus says do not look upon a woman in lust or your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says If you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says, If any believer hates his brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). John also says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). All means all; And John makes no mention of another group of liars who will not be cast into the Lake of Fire. If the Bible spoke as you are suggesting according to your belief, then none of these warnings would be in your Bible because everyone would just automatically do the right thing (with no need for a Bible to warn them in what they need to do).


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your problem really is using the word 'free will' but not necessarily defining it.
i am presenting it as 'free choice' not 'free will' because that is what really most people mean when they say it.

you can will to travel the galaxies and explore the mysteries of space, but really it is not a choice because you do not have the ability. or you can will to fly like a bird, but it is not really a choice simply because you are not bird. so your so-called 'free' will is not really free, your 'free will' is basically limited by your ability. your choices are limited by what is available. you cannot choose something that is not available. 'free choice' for something you cannot choose is a misnomer.

ok now, what is it that makes a person choose one thing from another, assuming without constraints or being forced ? the obvious question is DESIRE. we choose something because we like it. or using term, WE WILL TO CHOOSE SOMETHING BECAUSE WE DESIRE IT.

so now here is the simple cent answer to your million dollar question: Does a believer have free will to turn away from God after they are saved? , or can the believer choose to turn away from God ?

he cannot, not because he can't , but simply because he won't.
it is not 'desirable' for a child of God to turn away from God. it is NOT THE BETTER CHOICE ! it conflicts with his new nature. why will you choose something you do not like? of course you choose something you desire the most!

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

the reality is, it is NOT his NEW NATURE to turn away. thenew nature brings about a desire (the better choice) to serve and follow God.

you see there is no issue in free will or free choice at all. it is the issue of desiring the most.

so now how do you integrate your requirements of works ? easy, it is the NATURE OF THE NEW CREATION - BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

your issue really is ignoring the reality of the new creation. Sure there is a war between the old and new nature, and you can put in there all your admonitions, advice , warnings, etc..

But it does not in any way remove the fact that the new nature gives the person a better desire or choice to live his life to God-> because God works him/her and not just working with him/her. WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP.


Again, I will ask you. (1) Does a believer have free will to turn away from God after they are saved? Or does God only save those in whom He knows will endure in righteousness to the end by their free will choice? If that is the case, then it really is not free will. For what about the people who genuinely choose to follow God for a short time but then later decide to go back to their old life of sin? Or do you believe that people cannot be good for a time and turn bad?

Yes, I believe there is an "Elect" or a "Chosen" type people. God knows who His true children are. But God's Word also teaches that there are those who endure for a while and are only saved for a short time. This why the Bible gives us many warnings. The Bible speaks to us as if we have a free will choice to choose this day in Whom will serve. For example: Jesus says do not look upon a woman in lust or your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says If you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says, If any believer hates his brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). John also says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). All means all; And John makes no mention of another group of liars who will not be cast into the Lake of Fire. If the Bible spoke as you are suggesting according to your belief, then none of these warnings would be in your Bible because everyone would just automatically do the right thing (with no need for a Bible to warn them in what they need to do).


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your problem really is using the word 'free will' but not necessarily defining it.
i am presenting it as 'free choice' not 'free will' because that is what really most people mean when they say it.

you can will to travel the galaxies and explore the mysteries of space, but really it is not a choice because you do not have the ability. or you can will to fly like a bird, but it is not really a choice simply because you are not bird. so your so-called 'free' will is not really free, your 'free will' is basically limited by your ability. your choices are limited by what is available. you cannot choose something that is not available. 'free choice' for something you cannot choose is a misnomer.

ok now, what is it that makes a person choose one thing from another, assuming without constraints or being forced ? the obvious question is DESIRE. we choose something because we like it. or using term, WE WILL TO CHOOSE SOMETHING BECAUSE WE DESIRE IT.

so now here is the simple cent answer to your million dollar question: Does a believer have free will to turn away from God after they are saved? , or can the believer choose to turn away from God ?

he cannot, not because he can't , but simply because he won't.
it is not 'desirable' for a child of God to turn away from God. it is NOT THE BETTER CHOICE ! it conflicts with his new nature. why will you choose something you do not like? of course you choose something you desire the most!

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

the reality is, it is NOT his NEW NATURE to turn away. thenew nature brings about a desire (the better choice) to serve and follow God.

you see there is no issue in free will or free choice at all. it is the issue of desiring the most.

so now how do you integrate your requirements of works ? easy, it is the NATURE OF THE NEW CREATION - BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

your issue really is ignoring the reality of the new creation. Sure there is a war between the old and new nature, and you can put in there all your admonitions, advice , warnings, etc..

But it does not in any way remove the fact that the new nature gives the person a better desire or choice to live his life to God-> because God works him/her and not just working with him/her. WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP.

I understand "free will" and people's choices just fine. Free will CAN involve one making a choice between two things. God created Adam to be his workmanship but yet that did not prevent Adam in sinning and doing what was contrary to his good nature that God created Adam with. See, Adam had a good nature, just as born again believers have a good nature. But just like Adam, we are not immune to not sinning (Which is contrary to God's good nature and rigtheousness). For if we were totally changed as you say (with no choice to choose otherwise), then God would make us as mindless love robots who have no capacity or capability to even sin at all. However, the fact, that we can sin and make a choice to not follow God is proof we are not love robots or that our free will has been eliminated. God essentially told Cain that he could have sinned or not have sinned (Genesis 4:7). He had a free will choice set before him to do either good or bad. He chose the bad. Cain was not forced against his will to be bad or to be a certain way.

For why even have any type of Judgments if people cannot really be to blame for the condition of their own being? Yes, you say we have free will, but then you turn around and say that these born again types would never want to walk away from God. This suggests that such a choice is taken away from them (and they do not have the free will capacity to choose such an option).


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Again, I will ask you. Does God only save those in whom He knows will endure in righteousness to the end by their free will choice?

Also, is it possible for a believer to abide in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman and still be saved (as long as they generally lived a holy life)?


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ah jason, you and your almighty free will. you now talk like a pelagian honestly.

i do not understand what you mean by 'good nature', no one is good except God.

we are NOT like pre-fall Adam. we are all like after-fall Adam. we cannot but sin, unless we become born again.

we are not robots. we desire and we follow our sinful desires- and that itself is making a choice.

we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. unless you remove the idea of sin as doing something, you will always categorize people as being good or bad, when in reality no one is good. and you will always go around circles discussing about free will when in reality it is the 'bondage of the will' that is really the issue.


Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because ALL SINNED--


I understand "free will" just fine. Free will involves one making a choice between two things. God created Adam to be his workmanship but yet that did not prevent Adam in sinning and doing what was contrary to his good nature that God created Adam with. See, Adam had a good nature, just as born again believers have a good nature. But just like Adam, we are not immune to not sinning (Which is contrary to God's good nature and rigtheousness). For if we were totally changed as you say (with no choice to choose otherwise), then God would make us as mindless love robots who have no capacity or capability to even sin at all. However, the fact, that we can sin and make a choice to not follow God is proof we are not love robots or that our free will has been eliminated. God essentially told Cain that he could have sinned or not have sinned (Genesis 4:7). He had a free will choice set before him to do either good or bad. He chose the bad. Cain was not forced against his will to be bad or to be a certain way.


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I mean, there are obviously things we can do nothing about. We cannot change death or the consequences of sin. We cannot choose to fly like superman or to shoot laser beams from our eyes at will. Just because we have predetermined perimeters upon our being does not negate the fact that we can still choose between life and death with each one having it's own unique consequences (Deuteronomy 30:19).

When Satan seduced Eve to buy into the lie that she would not die spiritually by eating of the wrong tree, she made a choice. Yes, it was a predetermined choice. But the choice still existed none the less! If she refused Satan and convinced Adam to do the same, then we would not be in the sinful world that we are living in now. God did not force Eve to eat of the wrong tree, nor did God prevent Eve in eating of it either. He gave her the free will choice to choose one way or the other.

For example:

If I put a tiger in a super tight cage to just fit it's body, he is not free to move about or even bend it's neck to get food to eat. He is trapped and confined to a very tight space. But if I put the tiger in a 100 acre land that was fenced in with wild game to feed upon, then he is free to move about naturally. Yes, he is still in a controlled area, but he is now free to move. The tiger has the free choice to now move or to not move of it's own will. But when it was in the cage, it did not have that choice.

Therefore, in conclusion:

God does not take away our free will to either accept Him or to reject Him (or in continuing to remain in Him). It is not an illusion. One choice (faith and faithfulness) will lead a person to God's Kingdom and the other choice (unbelief and sin) will lead that person to destruction in the Lake of Fire. God does not force people into His Kingdom nor does He force people to go to the Furnace of Fire. It is that simple. If God did force people into His Kingdom and the Lake of Fire against their free will, then the Judgment would be a farce (It would serve no real purpose).


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the problem here is you are using Adam and Eve comparison of what we are now, ignoring the effects of the fall.

Pelagius used this approach, he was assuming the fall had not any effect on THE CHOICES man makes. That we are like Adam and Eve able to choose between good and evil. You have a wrong view of the effects of sin, and that is the reason why you think sin is due to making bad choices.

But the effects of the fall changed the way we make choices, for as I have mentioned to you, we always choose WHAT WE DESIRE THE MOST. and fallen man will NOT choose God, he/she will choose something that will suit him/her EXCEPT choose God. he/she will even choose his own version of a convenient God regardless if he/she calls it with biblical names.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: "NONE is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 ALL have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

fallen man will never choose God, for the simple reason that they do not know the real God, nor will seek what they do not understand, yet by seeking-> they are making their choices, but ALL THE WRONG CHOICES, all the wrong desires.

we are not adam and eve before the fall, we are adam and eve AFTER THE FALL.


I mean, there are obviously things we can do nothing about. We cannot change death or the consequences of sin. We cannot choose to fly like superman or to shoot laser beams from our eyes at will. Just because we have predetermined perimeters upon our being does not negate the fact that we can still choose between life and death with each one having it's own unique consequences (Deuteronomy 30:19).

When Satan seduced Eve to buy into the lie that she would not die spiritually by eating of the wrong tree, she made a choice. Yes, it was a predetermined choice. But the choice still existed none the less! If she refused Satan and convinced Adam to do the same, then we would not be in the sinful world that we are living in now. God did not force Eve to eat of the wrong tree, nor did God prevent Eve in eating of it either. He gave her the free will choice to choose one way or the other.

For example:

If I put a tiger in a super tight cage to just fit it's body, he is not free to move about or even bend it's neck to get food to eat. He is trapped and confined to a very tight space. But if I put the tiger in a 100 acre land that was fenced in with wild game to feed upon, then he is free to move about naturally. Yes, he is still in a controlled area, but he is now free to move. The tiger has the free choice to now move or to not move of it's own will. But when it was in the cage, it did not have that choice.

Therefore, in conclusion:

God does not take away our free will to either accept Him or to reject Him (or in continuing to remain in Him). It is not an illusion. One choice (faith and faithfulness) will lead a person to God's Kingdom and the other choice (unbelief and sin) will lead that person to destruction in the Lake of Fire. God does not force people into His Kingdom nor does He force people to go to the Furnace of Fire. It is that simple. If God did force people into His Kingdom and the Lake of Fire against their free will, then the Judgment would be a farce (It would serve no real purpose).


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As for your claim that I am Pelagian: Well, if Theopedia is correct, I would say I believe in Semi-Pelagianism (And not Pelagianism).

http://www.theopedia.com/free-will

Here is the quote of the definition from their article:

"Semi-Pelaginism acknowledges that man's will and nature are somewhat affected (injured) by the Fall, but mankind retains libertarian free will. The end result is essentially the same as the Arminian view -- the difference being free will "by nature" rather than by the Arminian's universal prevenient grace. In Semi-Pelagianism, man has a free will essentially unaffected by the fall and not limited by his natural desires, inclinations, or prior dispositions. By way of reference, Pelagianism says man's will (and nature) is not affected at all by the Fall."​

Side Note:

However, I believe man's nature was not effected somewhat or a little after the fall (like the article implies or suggests). I believe man's nature WAS effected by the fall of Adam or his sin. But that does not change the fact that we have "free will" to act differently then our sinful nature that was given to us from Adam so as to repent of our sins and accept Christ (Which then results in God converting us spiritually, i.e. to be born again). For Adam had acted contrary to his good nature and he sinned of his own free will (Just as a born again person can act contrary to their good nature). In other words, a person can act contrary to their nature. For example: Men and women have certain body parts that fit together. This is in line with God's creation (i.e. it is a a part of nature). However, there are those who do not seek to be intimate with the opposite sex and they go against nature itself.


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the problem here is you are using Adam and Eve comparison of what we are now, ignoring the effects of the fall.

Pelagius used this approach, he was assuming the fall had not any effect on THE CHOICES man makes. That we are like Adam and Eve able to choose between good and evil. You have a wrong view of the effects of sin, and that is the reason why you think sin is due to making bad choices.

But the effects of the fall changed the way we make choices, for as I have mentioned to you, we always choose WHAT WE DESIRE THE MOST. and fallen man will NOT choose God, he/she will choose something that will suit him/her EXCEPT choose God. he/she will even choose his own version of a convenient God regardless if he/she calls it with biblical names.


Rom 3:10 as it is written: "NONE is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 ALL have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

fallen man will never choose God, for the simple reason that they do not know the real God, nor will seek what they do not understand, yet by seeking-> they are making their choices, but ALL THE WRONG CHOICES, all the wrong desires.

we are not adam and eve before the fall, we are adam and eve AFTER THE FALL.

If what you say is true then why did Jesus say the following?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me"
(Matthew 23:37)
(New Living Translation).

It sure sounds to me like Jesus desired to save the Israelites, but of their own free will choice, they simply would not allow Jesus to save them.


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In fact, I choose of my own free will Jesus Christ.

For it is written...

13 "And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, says the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity"
(Jeremiah 29:13-14).


Side Note:

Please take note that while I do like this video a lot and I highly recommend that people should watch it, I do not agree with the creator's theology in regards to Calvinism. Calvinism is wrong both Biblically and morally. What is ironic is that the song's title and lyrics suggests free will choice.

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13 "And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, says the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity"
(Jeremiah 29:13-14).

If I were a Calvinist, I would have to twist the plain straight forward meaning of this passage in Jeremiah. It would not make any sense. God would be telling you something that sounds like a free will choice on your part (i.e. to search for me with all your heart) but somehow it really doesn't mean that. It was God who placed in you the desire and capacity to seek Him. Which would be silly because to tell man in His Holy Word to search for Him (when he doesn't have the capacity to do so) would be non-sense. It would be a contradiction. It would be a message of confusion; However, God is not the author of confusion, though.


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