Apart from works?

[bcbsr]

Is salvation by faith apart from works, or is salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance and/or one's' involvement in religious ceremonies.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is contingent upon our being made just by God, as a result of our faith in Him-a free response to His grace- and persevering in that faith with all that entails. This means to do the best we can with what we're given: time, opportunity, grace, revelation; reference the Parable of the Talents and Luke 12:48. It means to pick up one's cross and follow Jesus, to be continuously transformed by Him into the image of God which is love, love being the very definition of justice, what it means to be justified or made righteous. It means to love as God intends us to love, born out by works of love by which we'll be judged as outlined in Matt 25:31-46. In the end, "The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5-6

 

[bcbsr]

So rather than viewing such verses that speak of a correlation between one's behavior and one's salvation status as speaking of the process of being sanctified as a saved person, you view them as obtaining and maintaining one's salvation status based upon one's ongoing performance.

Given that position, what is the basis of one's hope and joy?

For example when the Galatians were influence by such an idea, naturally their joy was taken away, seeing as there was no guarantee they would ultimately be saved. Thus Paul asks, "What has happened to all your joy?" Gal 4:15

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is saying how we are ultimately saved. Paul is also talking about initial salvation (Justification) here and not continued salvation (Sanctification) in the Lord (Ephesians 2:11-13). Jesus saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification. We are saved both by having a belief on Jesus (faith) and by allowing Jesus (who lives within us) to do the good work within our hearts and lives. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God that works in you to do of His will and good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For we also bear the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

In Ephesians 2:8, Paul is saying salvation is like a gift.
Gifts are received. So this is talking about initial salvation. For one has to receive a gift in order to have it.
We are ultimately saved by God's grace THRU the vehicle of faith.
Faith requires a belief.
True faith always results in right actions proving that such a faith is true.
Hence, why James says, "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

But in verse 9, Paul is saying that we are not saved by works alone in and of itself. For the Pharisees falsely believed in Works Salvationism or Law alone as a means of salvation and pretty much left out God and as their Savior. Which means there was no mercy or grace in their belief. So there was no forgiveness for others. This is confirmed by Jesus when he said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).​

However, Paul does not want us to neglect the fact that we still have to do works, though. For in verse 10, Paul says,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
(Ephesians 2:10).​

See, Paul says here that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. In fact, God has foreordained that we SHOULD walk in these good works. The word "Should" here does not suggest that this is an option for us.

Paul is simply laying it out how we are ultimately saved. It is by God's grace THRU faith.
For if a believer sins, how do they keep their heart right with God? Do they go out and do a bunch more works to offset the sin? No. One cannot get clean in that way. One gets forgiven (cleaned) by calling out to Jesus to have mercy on them (1 John 1:9). In fact, we see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee was merely focused on works alone and thought he was better than the Tax Collector because of his deeds. But the Tax Collector called out to God to have mercy on him and was more justified in God's sight because He sought out the Lord's grace in order to be forgiven. The Tax Collector was humble before God whereas the Pharisee was boastful in his works alone.

See, man made works alone salvationism is wrong, but God directed works is just evidence that Jesus lives within you (Who is the source of a person's life or salvation - See 1 John 5:12). This is why Paul says that we are to prove whether or not Jesus Christ is in us or not (2 Corinthians 13:5). One can only prove if they have Christ in them by their works (i.e. Christ's works). This is the same line of reasoning that John talks about in his first epistle (Compare 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 2:4 and then read 1 John 2:3-6 as a whole).

But does Ephesians 2:8-9 justify Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved doctrine? No.

Paul is confident that the Ephesian believers are not like that. For Paul says,

"Among whom also we all had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:3).


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[bcbsr]

While Eph 2:8,9 states "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.", it seems what you're saying about Eph 2:8,9 is that it is not that one "has been saved", but rather that one has the potential of being saved if one lives the rest of their life as a good Christian. If one commits a sin, they lose the potential to be saved. "Not by works", you say you take to mean "Not by works ONLY". Really?

My question is how do you know whether or not you yourself have lost the potential to be saved? For what if you have, say, born false witness against your brother, which is sin, but due to prejudice you may be unaware of that fact. Or do you make exception for sins of which you may be unaware?

 

[Job8]

Is salvation by faith apart from works, or is salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance and/or one's' involvement in religious ceremonies.

Short answer: APART FROM WORKS, or as Scripture says "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Tit 3:5).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Short answer: APART FROM WORKS, or as Scripture says "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Tit 3:5).

And it isn't by works of righteousness alone that you have done. Salvation is both faith and (God directed) works; For the righteous works that are done is the Lord working in you (And it is not of your own power or ability alone). See 1 Corinthians 15:10.


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[Bible Highlighter]

While Eph 2:8,9 states "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.", it seems what you're saying about Eph 2:8,9 is that it is not that one "has been saved", but rather that one has the potential of being saved if one lives the rest of their life as a good Christian. If one commits a sin, they lose the potential to be saved. "Not by works", you say you take to mean "Not by works ONLY". Really?

You are confusing "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" with "God Directed Works" that is done within a believer (Which is the natural result in having a relationship with the Lord).

Works in and of itself alone does not save. But nowhere does Paul say we are not saved by faith with no fruit of God (which is a natural result of faith). For Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:5 that we are to prove whether or not Christ is in us unless we are reprobate. The only way you can prove Christ is in you is if you have deeds showing such a thing (See 1 John 2:3-6). Paul is saying what is actually saving you. This is grace. This is Jesus. Let me put it to you another way. A wave is the result of wind hitting the water or from something in the water moving it. But with no wind or object moving in the water (to create a wave), there is no wave. Think of salvation like the wind. The wind is what moves the water (the works). God is the source of a person's salvation (much like wind is the engine for a wave) whereby you see some form of action or works (the waves existence or it's movement). Paul is saying ultimately the engine or source of your life is Jesus Christ. So if one lives in Jesus, then Jesus will do the good work in your heart and life; And there is no life without Jesus. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Remember, it is also possible to deny God by a lack of one's works (Titus 1:16).
My works alone?
No, no. Most certainly not.
Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).
And Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).
These works that would be destroyed by Jesus are the works of the devil (sin) within your own life.

My question is how do you know whether or not you yourself have lost the potential to be saved? For what if you have, say, born false witness against your brother, which is sin, but due to prejudice you may be unaware of that fact. Or do you make exception for sins of which you may be unaware?

God will convict a believer of their sin if they are striving to walk in His good ways. God can also chastise a believer, as well. A believer who walks with Christ (God) will be senstive to God's will and in walking in His righteousness.


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[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, Salvation is not Antinomianism (an ignoring of God's laws on some level) and Salvation is not Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ. For He is the source of a person's life (See 1 John 5:12). For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved.


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[Bible Highlighter]

For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

(2 Corinthians 5:17).


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[Freedom Now]

Is salvation by faith apart from works, or is salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance and/or one's' involvement in religious ceremonies.

Paul's letter to the Romans states.....

For man believes with his heart and so is justified,

and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.


Is scriptural confessing with our lips a work?

 

[bcbsr]

Salvation is contingent upon our being made just by God, as a result of our faith in Him-a free response to His grace- and persevering in that faith with all that entails. This means to do the best we can with what we're given: time, opportunity, grace, revelation; reference the Parable of the Talents and Luke 12:48. It means to pick up one's cross and follow Jesus, to be continuously transformed by Him into the image of God which is love, love being the very definition of justice, what it means to be justified or made righteous. It means to love as God intends us to love, born out by works of love by which we'll be judged as outlined in Matt 25:31-46. In the end, "The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5-6

What is your opinion of this idea?

When a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Is this something you would agree with?

 

[bcbsr]

...

But in verse 9, Paul is saying that we are not saved by works alone in and of itself. For the Pharisees falsely believed in Works Salvationism or Law alone as a means of salvation and pretty much left out God and as their Savior. Which means there was no mercy or grace in their belief. So there was no forgiveness for others. This is confirmed by Jesus when he said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).​

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But does Ephesians 2:8-9 justify Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved doctrine? No.

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You bring in the issue of the Law of Moses and speak of Antinomianism. Am I to understand your position to be that to be save one must believe in Jesus and be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses to be saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You bring in the issue of the Law of Moses and speak of Antinomianism. Am I to understand your position to be that to be save one must believe in Jesus and be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses to be saved?

Where did I say we have to obey the Law of Moses or the Old Testament Laws? The Law of Moses was fulfilled upon the cross (which would include circumcision and the Saturday Sabbath). The death of Christ brought in a New Testament or New Covenant. Therefore, I am a New Covenant believer who follows the Commands under the New Covenant (Not the Old Covenant).


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[Bible Highlighter]

What is your opinion of this idea?

When a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Is this something you would agree with?

For example: Let's say someone gives you a car as a free gift. Does that mean you can ignore the responsibilities in owning such a gift by running red lights and by drinking and driving?

Unless your friend you are talking with here is proposing Works Alone Salvationism with no grace and no savior, there is no conflict of a person taking care of a free gift that they received. For taking care of a gift is not the same as working so as to obtain enough money to buy the car. For life teaches us that there are responsibilities in having good gifts.


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[EmSw]

You bring in the issue of the Law of Moses and speak of Antinomianism. Am I to understand your position to be that to be save one must believe in Jesus and be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses to be saved?

Do you not believe in circumcision of the heart?

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jeremiah 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

This is from the law of Moses.

 

[bcbsr]

Where did I say we have to obey the Law of Moses or the Old Testament Laws? The Law of Moses was fulfilled upon the cross (which would include circumcision and the Saturday Sabbath). The death of Christ brought in a New Testament or New Covenant. Therefore, I am a New Covenant believer who follows the Commands under the New Covenant (Not the Old Covenant).


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You said, "But does Ephesians 2:8-9 justify Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved doctrine? No."

If you view the definition of "Antinomian" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism it says:
"In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the Law of Moses."

So now you're saying you're an "Antinomian". I find that confusing.

So under the Old Covenant one would have faith in God and follow His regulations in order to be saved. A concept of which Paul calls "a Curse".

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

But now you're saying the exact same thing of the New Covenant, the only difference apparently being that certain regulations were replaced by other regulations, but still it's the same cursed idea that one's salvation status is contingent upon one's continual compliance to regulations. Seems to me such a salvation scheme Paul characterizes as a curse.

But how do your reconcile your view with Gal 3:10-12?

 

[bcbsr]

For example: Let's say someone gives you a car as a free gift. Does that mean you can ignore the responsibilities in owning such a gift by running red lights and by drinking and driving?

Unless your friend you are talking with here is proposing Works Alone Salvationism with no grace and no savior, there is no conflict of a person taking care of a free gift that they received. For taking care of a gift is not the same as working so as to obtain enough money to buy the car. For life teaches us that there are responsibilities in having good gifts.


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I was actually asking a different person that question (fhansen) in light of his statement. But thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said, "But does Ephesians 2:8-9 justify Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved doctrine? No."

If you view the definition of "Antinomian" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism it says:
"In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the Law of Moses."

So now you're saying you're an "Antinomian". I find that confusing.

Well, first, Wikipedia is only as good and trust worthy as the sources they provide and as good and knowledgeable the author who is writing it. Wikipedia is not a religious website but it is a secular one (that writes facts based on the beliefs of others from their secular understanding). If you were to research religious websites, they refer to Antinomianism as an ignoring of the moral law. Yes, it is probably true that the first arrival of the word "Antinomianism" was in reference to ignoring the Law of Moses, but in time it the meaning of this word has changed to refer to an ignoring of the moral law (In fact, the article at Wikipedia appears to mention this fact, but they have not updated the first paragraph to reflect this change; Anyways, here is the paragraph at Wikipedia that tells us this).

"A general consensus has been historically reached as to which laws of the Old Testament Christians are still enjoined to keep. These moral laws, as opposed to civil or ceremonial laws, are derivative of what St. Paul refers to as the natural law (Rom. 2.14-15). Mosaic law has authority only insofar as it reflects the commands of Christ and the natural law. Christian sects and theologians who believe that they are freed from more moral constraint than is customary are often called "antinomian" by their critics."

~ Wikipedia.​

Second, religious websites like Gotquestions, and Theopedia define Antinomianism as an ignoring of the moral law. Even the dictionary defines the word Antinomianism in such a way. So while the word "Antinomianism" might have had a meaning at one time as being in reference to ignoring the Law of Moses, the word has become to mean today in the religious world as a reference to ignoring God's moral law(s) in general.

http://www.gotquestions.org/antinomianism.html
Please take note that while Gotquestions says Antinomianism is unbiblical, it states that Eternal Security is true (Which is false).
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

http://www.theopedia.com/antinomianism

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/antinomianism

So under the Old Covenant one would have faith in God and follow His regulations in order to be saved. A concept of which Paul calls "a Curse".

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

No. First, God does not give out commands to his people just so that He can turn around tell them to break them or to downplay their importance. That doesn't make any sense. In addition, such a concept ignores morality and God is not against morality but He is for it. God is good and He is not evil. God supports what is good, just, and righteous. For I should not even have to tell you this. Morality helps you to understand who the good guys vs. the bad guys are when you go out into the world, or when you watch a movie, or when you turn on the news. For without morals, one is lawless and evil.

Second, there was no system of Law alone type salvation in the Old Testament. Faith existed even in the Old Testament just as God's laws existed in the Old Testament (See Hebrews 11). In fact, even before the giving of the Law of Moses, there was still the existence of God's laws. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Meaning, the people in the global flood perished because of their wickedness or sin (i.e. because they broke God's laws). For Scriptures even says Noah was a preacher of righteousness. This is not in conflict with faith.

But now you're saying the exact same thing of the New Covenant, the only difference apparently being that certain regulations were replaced by other regulations, but still it's the same cursed idea that one's salvation status is contingent upon one's continual compliance to regulations. Seems to me such a salvation scheme Paul characterizes as a curse.

No. Paul is talking about how one is under a curse if they are seeking to go back to the Law of Moses so as to be justified. Paul was also addressing the fact that it is not Law alone whereby we are justified or saved but it is by God's grace. For it is the person of Jesus who ultimately saves us; And it is thru Jesus whereby we are saved both in Justification and in Sanctification.

But how do your reconcile your view with Gal 3:10-12?

The Law being referenced here is the Law of Moses and it is not in reference to the Commands in the New Testament (Put forth by Jesus, and Paul and the other apostles). If such were not the case, then there would be many contradictions in Scripture (See 1 John 3:23, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 7:26-27).

In fact, we know that the Law mentioned in Galatians is in reference to the Law of Moses because Galatians 3:24 says,

"Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, "
(Galatians 3:24).​

A school master was a teacher. This teacher is related to the Law that brought us UNTO Christ. So this is in reference to the Law of Moses because it says this type of Law brought us to Christ. But when Christ came, Jesus did not say that all law was abolished. Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law and not to destroy or abolish Law. Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

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[Bible Highlighter]

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I was actually asking a different person that question (fhansen) in light of his statement. But thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

Yes, I realize that. But it does not change the truth of my reply, though.


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