Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

[keltoi]

The woman clothed with the sun is symbolic of redeemed Israel, not Mary, and that is evident from the entire chapter. Since Christ came from Israel, he is the child depicted therein.

The 12 stars on the crown depict the 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Actually it isn't. The word that Luke uses--κεχαριτωμένη, kecharitomene-- is found no where else in scripture. .

False. I assume you are not able to read Greek, since you claim this.

κεχαριτωμένῳ (Sirach 18:17) is masculine since it speaks about a man - while κεχαριτωμένη (Luk 1:28)is feminine since it speaks about a woman. It is the exact same word only different forms.

You do not have such grammatical distinction in English but it can be compared to singular/plural. 'car' and 'cars' are not two different word, but two different forms of the same word. But the similarity between the Greek words above is even closer than it is between my example of car/cars

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Out of all the people who could have given birth to Jesus he chose Mary because he "adored her enough". That is what I get from your post. If he adores everyone equally then Mary was chosen for a different reason.
I wonder then why you said he chose Mary because he "adored her enough". The adoration aspect seemed to be what your post centred on and the fact you said it indicates to me that you know the answer even though you appear to be back tracking now.

Not backtracking, but just accepting the mysteries of the incarnation and God's grace.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

At the heart of Catholicism, Mary means everything to "you." At the heart of Catholicism life wouldn't add up if Mary wasn't recognized in the way she is by RCC. It is ONLY important to acknowledge the role she has played in the lives of all the Saints that believe in her position in the heavens. She's most holy, most revered, most acknowledged and highly exalted. She's the mediator of men especially to God. So She's a "God."

it has taken a lot to see who she is from your view. I assumed I was being judgmental, condescending and rude. I assumed I have never been a Catholic and therefore, I would have never seen what you were saying. So in her there lies the assurance of pardon, in her there lies the assurance of eternal salvation.

Cis.jd in the Blood of the lamb there lies the assurance of pardon and ONLY in the LORD there lies the assurance of Eternal Salvation!

Period

I've been to baptist churches (as i said, i grew up as a baptist) in where the Pastor was given such high praise of his connection to God. A lot of the members only trust those Pastors in the words they speak in comparison to any other member in that church, they highly believe the message they've given and always asked for their aid and help by keeping contact, praying for them, and helping them become stronger in faith by whatever he says in relation to his views on God.I also underlined a part in your quote that you didn't bother to register in thought. I don't see anything wrong with what is quoted in your post, because i see nothing different from protestants towards their church leaders.

The last time I went to church, I never remembered who the pastor was but I remember what it was like to encounter the Presence of the LORD!!!

 

[keltoi]

Not backtracking, but just accepting the mysteries of the incarnation and God's grace.

Well than please state what you really meant because you seemed to be very clear that God adored Mary more than he adored anyone else and that is why she was chosen to give birth to Christ.

 

[Cis.jd]

At the heart of Catholicism, Mary means everything to "you." At the heart of Catholicism life wouldn't add up if Mary wasn't recognized in the way she is by RCC. It is ONLY important to acknowledge the role she has played in the lives of all the Saints that believe in her position in the heavens. She's most holy, most revered, most acknowledged and highly exalted. She's the mediator of men especially to God. So She's a "God."

it has taken a lot to see who she is from your view. I assumed I was being judgmental, condescending and rude. I assumed I have never been a Catholic and therefore, I would have never seen what you were saying. So in her there lies the assurance of pardon, in her there lies the assurance of eternal salvation.

Cis.jd in the Blood of the lamb there lies the assurance of pardon and ONLY in the LORD there lies the assurance of Eternal Salvation!

Period

This is a high misrepresentation on your part. Mary doesn't mean "everything" to me or catholics in the same sense as how God means to us. She has a high value of respect in our view and we don't hide around blind hypocrisy like most protestants do with their accusations.
"Asking Saints in Heaven for prayers is wrong... yet on the other hand there are about 5+ protestants in the front of the stage offering intercession for those who approach them".
"You state that Jesus was half man or half god nor make a separation of his humanity or divinity.. you can substitute with the word "God" with his name because it is the same but hey the title "Mother of God" can't be said because she is only the mother of his human nature"...
"Oh Pastor, you are such a great leader to us, you preach a great message from God and i was so moved by your message.. i feel light and free... oh look at those catholics, saying these same lines to Mary for interceding for them".[/quote]

You weren't being judgemental, but you really don't understand what the belief in Mary is about.

 

[Cis.jd]

False. I assume you are not able to read Greek, since you claim this.

κεχαριτωμένῳ (Sirach 18:17) is masculine since it speaks about a man - while κεχαριτωμένη (Luk 1:28)is feminine since it speaks about a woman. It is the exact same word only different forms.

You do not have such grammatical distinction in English but it can be compared to singular/plural. 'car' and 'cars' are not two different word, but two different forms of the same word. But the similarity between the Greek words above is even closer than it is between my example of car/cars

Actually it is true. I never said Sirach was masculine, it's just not there nor said in a sense of titleship as in with Luke. Re read it, there are other greek words in Luke 1:28 before κεχαριτωμένῳ which means "hail". There is nothing in scripture of what you've suggested, you just copy pasted that from a random protestant website.

 

[Cis.jd]

The woman clothed with the sun is symbolic of redeemed Israel, not Mary, and that is evident from the entire chapter. Since Christ came from Israel, he is the child depicted therein.

Mary is given no prominence after the Gospels, since God wants men to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ, not Mary, Joseph, John the Baptizer, or anyone else. The cult of Mary arose a few hundred years after the apostles had departed, and false teaching began to permeate the churches.

So the redeemed Israel gave birth to Jesus?

 

[Job8]

So the redeemed Israel gave birth to Jesus?

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2).

Both Mary and Joseph were redeemed Hebrews from the tribe of Judah and the line of David, and Bethlehem was the city of David (also redeemed by God's grace).

 

[keltoi]

Actually it is true. I never said Sirach was masculine, it's just not there nor said in a sense of titleship as in with Luke. Re read it, there are other greek words in Luke 1:28 before κεχαριτωμένῳ which means "hail". There is nothing in scripture of what you've suggested, you just copy pasted that from a random protestant website.

Do you know how many things the word "hail" can mean?
I can "hail" a taxi or a bus does that mean I am praising a taxi or a bus? Nope.
You really don't have any idea about language and linguistics do you!
In Luke 1:28 the word means greatings as in a salutation like Hello.

 

[keltoi]

Koine Greek Χαῖρε translates to Latin Ave and both translate to English Hello

 

[Cis.jd]

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2).

Both Mary and Joseph were redeemed Hebrews from the tribe of Judah and the line of David, and Bethlehem was the city of David (also redeemed by God's grace).

Hmm.. still problematic. This verse does not state that Jesus was birthed from Israel, all Messianic verses state that he was to be born from a virgin. Nothing else. Now lets examine more of Rev 12. In the 1st verse of Rev 12, you see the one who is clothed with the sun is a WOMAN. "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun". I know that this may tie in with Joseph's dream but when you go to chapter 17, you see other details that can't attribute to Israel alone.
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. The rest of her offspring are Christians, because they are the ones who keep the commandments of God. Doesn't fit Israel there.

Now go forward to verse 9, it says: The great dragon, the primeval serpent known as the devil or Satan...

Which ties in with Gen 3:15 "I will make you enemies of each other: you and the woman, between her seed (offspring) and yours.

Is this woman stated in Gen 3:15 Israel too? By that logic, then christianity is only exclusive to the nationalists of Israel.

 

[keltoi]

I know that this may tie in with Joseph's dream but when you go to chapter 17, you see other details that can't attribute to Israel alone

It can when you understand that Israel were God's people under the OT Covenant. Christians are God's people under the New Covenant of Christ. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

The rest of her offspring are Christians, because they are the ones who keep the commandments of God. Doesn't fit Israel there.

Christians are not obligated to keep the commandments of the Law, our obligation is to proclaim Christ.

Now go forward to verse 9, it says: The great dragon, the primeval serpent known as the devil or Satan...

Yeah so your point is what exactly?

Which ties in with Gen 3:15 "I will make you enemies of each other: you and the woman, between her seed (offspring) and yours.

Yep Eve's offspring not Mary's.

Is this woman stated in Gen 3:15 Israel too?

She is the mother of humanity not Israel nor Mary.

By that logic, then christianity is only exclusive to the nationalists of Israel.

Nope by that logic Christianity is not the new Judaism , which you have just attempted to make it out to be, but rather it is Christianity which welcomes people of all nations through their faith in Christ.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well than please state what you really meant because you seemed to be very clear that God adored Mary more than he adored anyone else and that is why she was chosen to give birth to Christ.

The point I'm trying to make is that if He did or did not adore Mary more than the rest of us; that would be between Him and Mary. What does it matter; God's grace and the love for us is not only sufficient, but it is far greater than we deserve.

Regarding this; what I know is that Mary is mentioned numerous times in the Bible, and you and I are not (except in generalities). I don't care if anyone venerates me (I see no reason for it), but Mary is venerated in Scripture by her very presence, so we should take scripture as a whole, and not discount Mary over another part. Scripture is the Holy inerrant Word of God; full of mysteries which is why we put a lot of emphasis on "Faith" over knowledge. We can know the Bible in and out, but without faith, we know nothing.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

The heart behind the "Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help" would only make sense if Mary was held in Highest Esteem. All I am saying not all Catholics view Mary in the "Worship" context but the heart and mind behind all Prayers to Mary regardless of the need in view did "have Cultus latria" sense of worship and not the "worship of venerated." For a Catholic to believe every word used in such Novenas they must enter a heart of worship and in this case, .....! Yes. Or someone has to understand in what Capacities she's "mightiest" or "able to conquer all forces of darkness" This is not false accusation or a misrepresentation of Prayers to the "Virgin" but honestly, no one uses those words unless addressing the Triune.

peace

This is a high misrepresentation on your part. Mary doesn't mean "everything" to me or catholics in the same sense as how God means to us. She has a high value of respect in our view and we don't hide around blind hypocrisy like most protestants do with their accusations.
"Asking Saints in Heaven for prayers is wrong... yet on the other hand there are about 5+ protestants in the front of the stage offering intercession for those who approach them".
"You state that Jesus was half man or half god nor make a separation of his humanity or divinity.. you can substitute with the word "God" with his name because it is the same but hey the title "Mother of God" can't be said because she is only the mother of his human nature"...
"Oh Pastor, you are such a great leader to us, you preach a great message from God and i was so moved by your message.. i feel light and free... oh look at those catholics, saying these same lines to Mary for interceding for them".

You weren't being judgemental, but you really don't understand what the belief in Mary is about.[/QUOTE]

 

[keltoi]

The point I'm trying to make is that if He did or did not adore Mary more than the rest of us; that would be between Him and Mary. What does it matter; God's grace and the love for us is not only sufficient, but it is far greater than we deserve.

You didn't make your point very well then because your words indicated that God adored Mary more than any other Hebrew woman and that is why she was chosen.

TRegarding this; what I know is that Mary is mentioned numerous times in the Bible, and you and I are not (except in generalities). I don't care if anyone venerates me (I see no reason for it), but Mary is venerated in Scripture by her very presence, so we should take scripture as a whole, and not discount Mary over another part. Scripture is the Holy inerrant Word of God; full of mysteries which is why we put a lot of emphasis on "Faith" over knowledge. We can know the Bible in and out, but without faith, we know nothing.

Satan, Ba'al, and many others are mentioned in the Bible as well does that mean we should venerate them? The Hebrews wondered if various people were Elijah or Moses returned and did not see what was really happening, I think this is the case for many "catholics".

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You didn't make your point very well then because your words indicated that God adored Mary more than any other Hebrew woman and that is why she was chosen.

Satan, Ba'al, and many others are mentioned in the Bible as well does that mean we should venerate them? The Hebrews wondered if various people were Elijah or Moses returned and did not see what was really happening, I think this is the case for many "catholics".

Regarding Satin and Baal; your dog does not hunt. They are identified with cautions.

I'm not all that surprised with you outlook. Most reformed protestants seem to need as many facts as atheists; and can not accept that there are mysteries; be mindful that the Bible warns against the wisdom of man.

 

[keltoi]

Regarding Satin and Baal; your dog does not hunt.

So to go further away from what we are supposed to be discussing you bring my dog into it? How come when regular members go off topic we get told to stay on topic but when you do it's ok?

They are identified with cautions.

And Mary is identified as someone who we should give more than 700 titles to is she?

I'm not all that surprised with you outlook. Most reformed protestants seem to need as many facts as atheists;

I don't need facts that come from mankind, I rely on the Bible. If it isn't in the Bible it isn't worth injecting into Christianity.

and can not accept that there are mysteries; be mindful that the Bible warns against the wisdom of man.

I totally accept there are mysteries. I have on numerous occasions in various threads said that humans do not know everything that God does and that is because his ways are above our ways and his mind is above our mind. You don't need to tell me there are mysteries, I'm not the one inventing a mythology about Mary in order to make Mary appear to be more than she is.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Actually it is true. I never said Sirach was masculine, it's just not there nor said in a sense of titleship as in with Luke. Re read it, there are other greek words in Luke 1:28 before κεχαριτωμένῳ which means "hail". There is nothing in scripture of what you've suggested, you just copy pasted that from a random protestant website.

No, I did not post it from "a random Protestant website" I did what I always do when people claim stuff about the Greek text of the Bible: I go read the original. I have studied Ancient Greek in University with top grades. What is your qualification? I hope it is not just quoting "a random Catholic website" ...

There is no doubt that the same word is used in Luke and Sirach. That is what I claimed, but you denied that. You now say that is it used in a different way. If we can agree that the same word used both places, we can go on and discuss the rest of the sentence. OK?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So to go further away from what we are supposed to be discussing you bring my dog into it? How come when regular members go off topic we get told to stay on topic but when you do it's ok?
And Mary is identified as someone who we should give more than 700 titles to is she?
I don't need facts that come from mankind, I rely on the Bible. If it isn't in the Bible it isn't worth injecting into Christianity.
I totally accept there are mysteries. I have on numerous occasions in various threads said that humans do not know everything that God does and that is because his ways are above our ways and his mind is above our mind. You don't need to tell me there are mysteries, I'm not the one inventing a mythology about Mary in order to make Mary appear to be more than she is.

You keep claiming that I said God loved Mary more than everyone else; I posted no such thing, the closest that I came to doing this was saying that if He did, it would not matter to you and I because His love is sufficient.

Mary is mentioned many times in the Bible; would it be right to take a black marker and irradiate all trace of her? By down playing her importance and the part she played in the incarnation, and the fact that God saw fit to tell us about such things in his holy word, you are doing just that.

I said this before: if God did not want us to take note of these things, he would not have put them in the Bible.