Question to Protestants regarding certain Catholic beliefs

MarkRohfrietsch

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So to go further away from what we are supposed to be discussing you bring my dog into it? How come when regular members go off topic we get told to stay on topic but when you do it's ok?
And Mary is identified as someone who we should give more than 700 titles to is she?
I don't need facts that come from mankind, I rely on the Bible. If it isn't in the Bible it isn't worth injecting into Christianity.
I totally accept there are mysteries. I have on numerous occasions in various threads said that humans do not know everything that God does and that is because his ways are above our ways and his mind is above our mind. You don't need to tell me there are mysteries, I'm not the one inventing a mythology about Mary in order to make Mary appear to be more than she is.
BTW, "your dog does not hunt" is a way of saying that your argument falls short; no hassenpffefer in the pot tonight.;)
 
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keltoi

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You keep claiming that I said God loved Mary more than everyone else; I posted no such thing, the closest that I came to doing this was saying that if He did, it would not matter to you and I because His love is sufficient.
Your exact words were
Cultus latria; Adoration. God Adored Mary enough to bear His Son (which includes His divinity as well as His humanity);
My point was and remains that out of all the Hebrew women that were available you are saying that God chose Mry because he adored her more than anyone else.a
Mary is mentioned many times in the Bible;
As I said and even gave examples, many people and even false gods are mentioned many times in the Bible.
would it be right to take a black marker and irradiate all trace of her?
I have never suggested that.
By down playing her importance and the part she played in the incarnation, and the fact that God saw fit to tell us about such things in his holy word, you are doing just that.
Downplaying her importance? more like putting her back into perspective. We never here about her after Acts, people suggest she is the Woman clothed with the Sun yet can't say how or why it would be her when plenty of evidence shows it is not her. If she is such an important figure why does she need a man made mythology built up around her?
said this before: if God did not want us to take note of these things, he would not have put them in the Bible.
Likewise people make up mythology for things he did not put in the Bible. You accused me of being like an atheist and needing evidence. I don't ask for evidence for my benefit because I know there is none, I ask it for the benefit of you and your cohorts who add things that are not there. There is a phrase "there are non so blind as those who will not look" well it seems "catholics" have sun sports in their eyes because they keep looking and now they see things that are not there. I have faith in God's Word I don't need to look for extras over and above it. It is a pity that so many people do need all these extras.
 
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keltoi

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BTW, "your dog does not hunt" is a way of saying that your argument falls short; no hassenpffefer in the pot tonight.;)
That must be slang then, my argument only falls short in the eyes of "catholics" because they are so wrapped up in the "cult" of Mary that they dare not consider it has blown out of all proportion. Mary this, Mary that, yes she was chosen to give birth to Jesus, yes she must have been special, yes we are blessed because of her giving birth to Christ but that is where it remains. She was a mere mortal that need the Messiah just as much as the rest of us. Christ is what our focus is supposed to be about, not Mary. It seems "catholics" forget that.
 
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Linet Kihonge

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I'm depressed:

"
THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.

O Fount of Light!
O Light of all lights!
O shining Brightness of the Eternal Light!
O spotless Mirror of the Divine Majesty!
O Window upon the Divine Nature!
O Portal opening unto Eternity!
O blessed Gate of Heaven!
O Doorway thru which has shone the Light of men!
O Door of the Most High King!
O Horizon out of which is arisen the Sun of Justice!
O Promontory above the Ocean of Divinity!
O Watchtower before the blazing Majesty of God!
O Star of the Sea!
O Star of Heaven, who alone has crushed all the Stars
fallen from Heaven!
O Morning Star, who has merited to usurp the name of the first fallen Star!

Very :prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer: WHO IS THIS!!! :rage:
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm depressed:

"THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.

O Fount of Light!
O Light of all lights!
O shining Brightness of the Eternal Light!
O spotless Mirror of the Divine Majesty!
O Window upon the Divine Nature!
O Portal opening unto Eternity!
O blessed Gate of Heaven!
O Doorway thru which has shone the Light of men!
O Door of the Most High King!
O Horizon out of which is arisen the Sun of Justice!
O Promontory above the Ocean of Divinity!
O Watchtower before the blazing Majesty of God!
O Star of the Sea!
O Star of Heaven, who alone has crushed all the Stars
fallen from Heaven!
O Morning Star, who has merited to usurp the name of the first fallen Star!

Very :prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer: WHO IS THIS!!! :rage:

Good question!
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Your exact words were
My point was and remains that out of all the Hebrew women that were available you are saying that God chose Mry because he adored her more than anyone else.a
As I said and even gave examples, many people and even false gods are mentioned many times in the Bible.
I have never suggested that.
Downplaying her importance? more like putting her back into perspective. We never here about her after Acts, people suggest she is the Woman clothed with the Sun yet can't say how or why it would be her when plenty of evidence shows it is not her. If she is such an important figure why does she need a man made mythology built up around her?
Likewise people make up mythology for things he did not put in the Bible. You accused me of being like an atheist and needing evidence. I don't ask for evidence for my benefit because I know there is none, I ask it for the benefit of you and your cohorts who add things that are not there. There is a phrase "there are non so blind as those who will not look" well it seems "catholics" have sun sports in their eyes because they keep looking and now they see things that are not there. I have faith in God's Word I don't need to look for extras over and above it. It is a pity that so many people do need all these extras.

Your implications are absurd; you alleged that I said God loved Mary more than the rest of us; I did not and your quotes fail to prove that. I was not speaking for "Catholics"; (they do a good job looking after themselves).

Regardless, I do take offense to you putting words into my mouth and words into the mouths of others.

I truly do applolgise for not knowing my own mind, my thoughts and my faith nearly as well as you do.

We need to set aside a date to commemorate the omniscient keltio; next time I think I have a thought, I will ask you to tell me what I'm thinking.

Such a resourse is a handy thing:

allseeingeye.jpg
 
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keltoi

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Your implications are absurd;
What implications? The ones taken straight from your own words where you said "Cultus latria; Adoration. God Adored Mary enough to bear His Son (which includes His divinity as well as His humanity);" which positively indicates that no other woman on this planet was adored by God as much as Mary was.
you alleged that I said God loved Mary more than the rest of us;
Read what you said.
I did not and your quotes fail to prove that.
To you maybe but not to me.
I was not speaking for "Catholics"; (they do a good job looking after themselves).
Have you not noticed I have been using a small c for "catholics" which includes more than the RCs.
Regardless, I do take offense to you putting words into my mouth and words into the mouths of others.
Here fly the accusations, if you take offence at my alleged putting words into you mouth why then have you, as a mod, not done anything about it? Furthermore if you take offence at me, allegedly, putting words into the mouth of others why have you, a a mod, not pulled me up on it and why have I never heard about this until now?
I truly do applolgise for not knowing my own mind, my thoughts and my faith nearly as well as you do.
It seems when people are confronted and feel uncomfortable they use sarcasm as a defence.
We need to set aside a date to commemorate the omniscient keltio; next time I think I have a thought, I will ask you to tell me what I'm thinking.
Don't bother me with such trifles.
Such a resourse is a handy thing:

allseeingeye.jpg
The Eye of Providence. Interesting that you use that to be sarcastic with. Yet another man made thing being used in this forum ahead of the Word of God.

You need not concern yourself with me anymore. I wont be back after I turn off the email notifications. I don't have the time, energy, or inclination to be a part of a community that allows dead humans such as Mary to be venerated more than God himself. God bless everyone who is a member here. Ciao
 
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Cis.jd

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No, I did not post it from "a random Protestant website" :( I did what I always do when people claim stuff about the Greek text of the Bible: I go read the original. I have studied Ancient Greek in University with top grades. What is your qualification? I hope it is not just quoting "a random Catholic website" ...

There is no doubt that the same word is used in Luke and Sirach. That is what I claimed, but you denied that. You now say that is it used in a different way. If we can agree that the same word used both places, we can go on and discuss the rest of the sentence. OK?

I haven't denied, i refuted it. Re read what I posted.. there is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that states the same Greek the way in Luke, it is rendered as a title rather than an adjective. You also have the greek word for "hail" being written before it.
 
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TheNorwegian

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I haven't denied, i refuted it. Re read what I posted.. there is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that states the same Greek the way in Luke, it is rendered as a title rather than an adjective. You also have the greek word for "hail" being written before it.

You have refuted it? Wow, that is pretty arrogant when you have not even answered my point
Let us go back the initials comment:
You brought in the word kecharitomene to prove a point:

. We can just downplay the symbology given to her in revelation, because the gospel of Luke also states she was full of grace (kecharitomene)..


I then pointed out that the same word is used in Sirach, saying: "The Greek word kecharitomene is also used in Sirach 18:17 where it speaks about a generous man. This man is not sinless, since it is an advice meant for us all. This fact speaks against understanding Luk 1:28 speaking about Mary being sinless - it speaks about her being wise or generous"

Do you really think you have proven that the same word is not used in Sirach? That was my initial point - and you have not even commented on that - probably because it does not fit in with your preconceived ideas. However, it would be good to know your level of understanding in Greek, so that I know which level I can use in my argumentation. I t does not make sens to me to have an argument on a linguistic issues with someone who does not speak the language we are discussing
 
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MrMoe

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Hello, i'm here because i'm interesting in understanding the Protestant point of view that contends with Catholic teachings.

This is a pretty comprehensive documentary from the protestant view that contends with Catholic teaching.

 
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Cis.jd

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You have refuted it? Wow, that is pretty arrogant when you have not even answered my point
Let us go back the initials comment:
You brought in the word kecharitomene to prove a point:
I then pointed out that the same word is used in Sirach, saying: "The Greek word kecharitomene is also used in Sirach 18:17 where it speaks about a generous man. This man is not sinless, since it is an advice meant for us all. This fact speaks against understanding Luk 1:28 speaking about Mary being sinless - it speaks about her being wise or generous"

Do you really think you have proven that the same word is not used in Sirach? That was my initial point - and you have not even commented on that - probably because it does not fit in with your preconceived ideas. However, it would be good to know your level of understanding in Greek, so that I know which level I can use in my argumentation. I t does not make sens to me to have an argument on a linguistic issues with someone who does not speak the language we are discussing
Yes, i did. Just read it. How can this Kecharitomene be that low in meaning when you have the word "hail" (Chaire) right before it. It seems you just wanted to ignore the other greek in it that puts it in the context of a title.

One of the most reputable Biblical Greek Scholar named Joseph Thayer underlined the differences between the Kecharitomene in Luke and in Sirach.
Luke 1:28: "to pursue with grace, compass with favor; to honor with blessings."
Sirach 18:17: "to make graceful i.e., charming, lovely, agreeable."
(Thayer, 667; Strong's word no. 5487)


So in short, because of how it is translated to the Latin Vulgate as Gratia Plena - Full of Grace (you ignored this), the fact that "Chaire" is stated in Luke before Kecharitomene, and because of the fact that the context in Luke puts it in masculine form, then academically, Kecharitomene in stated in title format. It's not an adjatiave like Sirach's. inKecharitomene is formed from the same root charitoo, where in Sirach do you see that? Why is that you are not caring to acknowledge that the "gracious" stated in Sirach is not said in a title, unlike in Luke. Did you get this from James White?
 
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Rick Otto

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This is a pretty comprehensive documentary from the protestant view that contends with Catholic teaching.

After reading about Constantine, I added a line to "If you can't beat them, join them."
It goes,... If you can't beat them, join them and become their leader.
 
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Rick Otto

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Your implications are absurd; you alleged that I said God loved Mary more than the rest of us; I did not and your quotes fail to prove that. I was not speaking for "Catholics"; (they do a good job looking after themselves).

Regardless, I do take offense to you putting words into my mouth and words into the mouths of others.

I truly do applolgise for not knowing my own mind, my thoughts and my faith nearly as well as you do.

We need to set aside a date to commemorate the omniscient keltio; next time I think I have a thought, I will ask you to tell me what I'm thinking.

Such a resourse is a handy thing:

allseeingeye.jpg
Oh, stop.
Be nice.
Remember your Round Table Oath!
;)
Love ya.
 
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MrMoe

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It's actually not.

I had to replace the eight hour documentary I originally posted which is what my quote was referring to.

The documentary is up on YouTube if you want to check it out. Just type in 8 hour Catholic documentary.
 
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JLB777

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But Jesus Christ is still God,

His flesh and blood body, which Mary gave birth to, is human.

The scripture says... He was made a little lower then the angels.

Mary did not give birth to God, she gave birth to the Man Jesus Christ.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.



JLB
 
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Albion

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Mary did not give birth to God, she gave birth to the Man Jesus Christ.
..who was already God before assuming the nature of a Man. Mary was, therefore, the mother of the Man who was also God. How we treat her because of that unique situation is the subject of endless discussion, much more so than whether Jesus was God or whether Mary gave birth to the baby Jesus.
 
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