Man in women's locker room cites gender rule

[The Cadet]

But they do not cater to their illness. They recognize it and try to help the overcome it as best they can.

You didn't read a word I said, did you? Look, if you know a way to help people with gender dysphoria "overcome" their disorder beyond the stated therapies, by all means, write up a scientific paper highlighting how it's supposed to work, publish it in peer review, apply for permission to perform a human study with an IRB, perform the study, publish the clinical results in a peer-reviewed journal, and get all the accolades that come from curing a substantial mental disorder.

Right now, what we have to help people with gender dysphoria is the above mentioned. Gender reassignment is a major part of it because it works. Because we know it works. Because it directly reduces harm.

Being transgendered is not like being schizophrenic. It's not necessarily harmful, there is no simple solution yet available, and if you transition and are happy with the results, it's fair to say that your mental condition is no longer harming you and thus you no longer suffer from a mental disorder.

I really want these poor people to get better and learn to live according to their actual DNA gender.

Why? No, seriously. Why? Why do you care? Why does it matter if they solve their problem by gender reassignment or sex reassignment? If they get better (and if they're no longer suffering because of the divide between their sex and gender, they have gotten better, regardless of what you think about it), why does it matter how they've gotten better? This is what I mean when I say I don't think you really care.

Oh wait, it has been removed. Please notice the influence of the LGBT community on this
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012...onger-a-mental-disorder-in-diagnostic-manual/

Yeah. It has. You know why?

The new DSM refers to "gender dysphoria," which focuses the attention on only those who feel distressed by their gender identity.

"I think it's a significant change," said Jack Drescher, a member of the American Psychiatric Association group that made the recommendation after working on it for four years. "It's clinically defensible, but it reduces the amount of stigma and harm that existed before."
​

This is exactly what I've been talking about. A man who thinks he's supposed to be a woman doesn't necessarily have a mental disorder. Why? Because we only talk about mental disorders in the context of innate harm. If you think Nickelback is the most groundbreaking, musically-important band ever, you're clearly delusional, and I as a music snob probably will want to hurt you very badly every time you open your mouth about music, but that belief does not inherently cause harm, so there's no reason to classify it as a mental disorder.

No, now the DSM talks about Gender Dysphoria - where the disconnect between your gender and your sex causes harm. Because that's the only case where further action is necessary. If I think I should be a woman, but I'm okay with how I am now, why would I need therapy?

 

[Armoured]

Fascinating radio article I heard this morning, one of the panelists is an female Australian senator, married to a transwoman. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...s-need-court-permission-to-take-cross/7188062

Not exactly on topic to the OP, but some interesting information that many in this thread might do well to hear

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

If a person is not female internally or externally, and lies to gain access to a gender specific condition, then it is a lie.

Criminals, narcissists and dictators are always using lies to get what they should not have.

Lies should be handled as though a gun was used.

LOVE,

 

[rjs330]

Medical establishment says they are normal. Majority of the population says they are normal. See that? That's called "being on the losing side of history".

No they are not normal. Its called common sense which we have lost. The homosexual community makes up approximately 3% of the community. Gender confusion types make up about .03%. 1% of people have schizophrenia and 2.6% are bi polar. So less people are gender confused than people that are schizophrenic. So tell me that it's normal.

Society is cow towing to the very loud and boistrous LGBT community who,has wanted nothing more than to be recognized as normal when it's obvious to the thinking people they are not. And the psych community used to agree, but changed their minds when pressured.

It's like the old Emperors New,Clothes story. He walked,around naked and everyone told him what lovely new clothes he had on cause they didn't want to offend even though they new he was naked. But a child didn't have the same sensibilities and simply stated the truth. The Emporor had no,clothes.

What the LGBT community has done is pushed and pushed and shamed and punished everyone who disagrees until people are not willing to speak up anymore. And people don't want to be accused of being a phobic and so just go,along. I won't, it's not normal, it's an illness.

 

[Armoured]

No they are not normal. Its called common sense which we have lost. The homosexual community makes up approximately 3% of the community. Gender confusion types make up about .03%. 1% of people have schizophrenia and 2.6% are bi polar. So less people are gender confused than people that are schizophrenic. So tell me that it's normal.

Society is cow towing to the very loud and boistrous LGBT community who,has wanted nothing more than to be recognized as normal when it's obvious to the thinking people they are not. And the psych community used to agree, but changed their minds when pressured.

It's like the old Emperors New,Clothes story. He walked,around naked and everyone told him what lovely new clothes he had on cause they didn't want to offend even though they new he was naked. But a child didn't have the same sensibilities and simply stated the truth. The Emporor had no,clothes.

What the LGBT community has done is pushed and pushed and shamed and punished everyone who disagrees until people are not willing to speak up anymore. And people don't want to be accused of being a phobic and so just go,along. I won't, it's not normal, it's an illness.

Normal does not mean "majority" Left handers, for example, are "normal". The psych community changed "its" mind the same way it always does, i.e,. in light of new evidence.

 

[Murby]

No they are not normal. Its called common sense which we have lost. The homosexual community makes up approximately 3% of the community. Gender confusion types make up about .03%. 1% of people have schizophrenia and 2.6% are bi polar. So less people are gender confused than people that are schizophrenic. So tell me that it's normal.

So its not normal.. so what? I don't understand why you're upset at the fact that not everyone is like you..

Society is cow towing to the very loud and boistrous LGBT community who,has wanted nothing more than to be recognized as normal when it's obvious to the thinking people they are not. And the psych community used to agree, but changed their minds when pressured.

The thinking people? LOL.. When you say "thinking people", are you referring to the physicist and other scientists who work to make everyone's lives better and figure out how the universe works? Or are you referring to those groups of people who believe in and follow a book written 2000 years ago by people who wiped their rear ends with their hands and thought the earth was flat? Which thinkers?????

And just so you understand, no change in a society has ever occurred without loud and boisterous action. That's HOW you get the ball rolling. When that doesn't work, you pick up a gun and start killing the people who oppose you.. (that's called revolutionary war)..

What is obvious to normal "thinking people" is that those who believe in writings that are thousands of years old and take it upon themselves to base their lives on those writings are not thinking the same way.

What the LGBT community has done is pushed and pushed and shamed and punished everyone who disagrees until people are not willing to speak up anymore. And people don't want to be accused of being a phobic and so just go,along. I won't, it's not normal, it's an illness.

Its an illness eh? ROFLMAO..

Ok.. lets "think" about this.. I'm one of those "thinkers"..
What about people in wheel chairs? Should we not make things accessible to them?
What about people born deaf or blind.. that's certainly not normal.. Should we just tell them too bad? You're not like us so screw you.. We're not going to change our society to fit your "illness"???

Oh, how about autistic folks? Should we not cater to them either? Sorry people, we don't allow others who are different to get married or share their life together.

Color blind? Nope, you can't get married or drive a care or get health insurance because you're different than us.

Or we can go another direction..
How about people that are born prodigies? Some of these people have skills that are so outside of what is normal we have to make special accommodations for them. Should we just say tough luck, you have to fall into line with the rest of us..???

Sounds to me like your only problem is with the sexuality of others.. Which really is a problem,, for you.. Because most "thinkers" don't give a rats behind what you do for sex.

There's an old one line quip.. "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"... Do you really want to live your life that way? Or be a "thinker" ???

 

[The Cadet]

No they are not normal. Its called common sense which we have lost.

Two things here are wrong.

Firstly, the appeal to common sense is, as always, a last defense when people have nothing else to offer. Saying "it's common sense" is pretty much only ever used in lieu of actual argument.

Secondly, the appeal to normality is completely unwarranted. What is "normal"? I'm left-handed. Am I "normal"? A recent study found that around half of young people in Britain don't consider themselves 100% heterosexual; does this make heterosexual teans "unnormal"? Most people where I live are white, does that make being white "normal"? Trying to apply a label like "normal" to people has almost always happened in conjuncture with people being marginalized for not fitting that definition of normal. There's no good reason to do it.

And the psych community used to agree, but changed their minds when pressured.

They changed their minds because the evidence supported it. There's no reason to classify something that causes no harm as a mental disorder. There simply isn't. If it doesn't cause harm, then there's no reason to treat it, and treating it may in fact cause real harm (as we see in the results from ex-gay therapy). This shift, far from being political in nature, actually made it so that the field of psychology could move away from politics. It ensured that if society wanted to brand something "mentally ill", there had to be a real reason there. It couldn't just be that most people found it disgusting or a holy book said it was immoral. It couldn't just be something people thought was weird.

 

[The Cadet]

I won't, it's not normal, it's an illness.

What are we talking about again? Homosexuality? Gender Dysphoria? Again, your uneducated, uninformed opinion is unwarranted. You do not know anything about modern psychology. You've bought into a bunch of really stupid conspiracy theories about why these changes were made, and the end result is that you've rejected the changes for bad reasons. Which would be okay, except that these changes were done at least in part to reduce harm. And by rejecting them, you're insuring that you continue to cause as much harm as possible. That's morally repugnant. I hope you never have kids or grandkids who turn out gay or trans.

 

[Uncle Siggy]

35 years of telling people to work it out for themselves, huh?

Lessons/knowledge learned the hard way is knowledge you will always have. Teaches you how to come to a conclusion/answer to a problem yourself instead of depending on someone else. You could say it's helping them grow up and become adults...

 

[Uncle Siggy]

Didn't anyone tell you if you make a claim, it's up to you to support it, not for the listener to do your work for you?

Lets see what else happened to members of the APA back in those early years of the 70s that brought about homosexuality being reclassified. The APA had their meetings/conventions interrupted by homosexual activists/protesters that were yelling/screaming badgering and using vile obscenities. One of their meetings/conventions degraded into a fist fight between homosexuals and doctors. [chuckle]. They were receiving hate mail at their homes and some were even confronted on the streets. Heck they even went after the US Ambassador to the UN when he was in either DC or NYC (am not sure which), and the American Library Association (ALA) to get them to start carrying pro-sodomy books in libraries. They even managed to get some of their own placed on the APA Board of Trustees that brought about the reclassification "being voted on" instead of being proven scientifically. (And this reclassification is what opened the door/can of worms that will eventually get a lot of other illnesses reclassified as less than what they really are, bestiality, pedophiles, transgenders etc, etc, etc)...

So homosexuality being reclassified to a "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" wasn't really brought about by scientific evidence it was brought around more by harassment, infiltration of the APA, intimidation tactics and some political pressure. This process wasn't all smiles and sunshine as some want to claim it was good old Saul Alinsky tactics, nothing more nothing less.......

 

[The Cadet]

Lets see what else happened to members of the APA back in those early years of the 70s that brought about homosexuality being reclassified. The APA had their meetings/conventions interrupted by homosexual activists/protesters that were yelling/screaming badgering and using vile obscenities. One of their meetings/conventions degraded into a fist fight between homosexuals and doctors. [chuckle]. They were receiving hate mail at their homes and some were even confronted on the streets. Heck they even went after the US Ambassador to the UN when he was in either DC or NYC (am not sure which), and the American Library Association (ALA) to get them to start carrying pro-sodomy books in libraries. They even managed to get some of their own placed on the APA Board of Trustees that brought about the reclassification "being voted on" instead of being proven scientifically. (And this reclassification is what opened the door/can of worms that will eventually get a lot of other illnesses reclassified as less than what they really are, bestiality, pedophiles, transgenders etc, etc, etc)...

So homosexuality being reclassified to a "Sexual Orientation Disturbance" wasn't really brought about by scientific evidence it was brought around more by harassment, infiltration of the APA, intimidation tactics and some political pressure. This process wasn't all smiles and sunshine as some want to claim it was good old Saul Alinsky tactics, nothing more nothing less.......

This, while an interesting little (completely uncited) conspiracy theory, ignores the crucial fact that homosexuality does not contain inherent harm. There is nothing inherently harmful about being homosexual, and this is a fact that has only become more clear as time goes on. As such, there is simply no reason to classify it as a mental disorder. Or do you think things that cause no inherent harm should be considered "illnesses"?

This absurd conspiracy also sweeps things like this 1973 symposium under the rug. Judd Marmor mirrors my claims almost point for point. What's more, the few dissenters have, at this point, been largely overturned. When I listen to Dr. Bieber's claims about homosexuality following only after the individual has exposed heterosexual tendencies and correlating with overbearing mothers and aggressive fathers, I can't help but be reminded of how far our understanding of sexuality has come, because those claims are simply untenable. But the fact of the matter is, we see a strong, healthy debate between differing viewpoints - even though the claims of one side of the debate have since been proven quite seriously flawed.

At the end of the day, this is like if the decision of a major medical society to abandon racist beliefs about the shape of an African-American's skull coincided with large-scale protests from African-Americans. Sure, I'm sure you could point to the political pressures involve and complain about it, but the fact of the matter is, they were wrong, and correcting that error was the right thing to do.

 

[Armoured]

This, while an interesting little (completely uncited) conspiracy theory, ignores the crucial fact that homosexuality does not contain inherent harm. There is nothing inherently harmful about being homosexual, and this is a fact that has only become more clear as time goes on. As such, there is simply no reason to classify it as a mental disorder. Or do you think things that cause no inherent harm should be considered "illnesses"?

This absurd conspiracy also sweeps things like this 1973 symposium under the rug. Judd Marmor mirrors my claims almost point for point. What's more, the few dissenters have, at this point, been largely overturned. When I listen to Dr. Bieber's claims about homosexuality following only after the individual has exposed heterosexual tendencies and correlating with overbearing mothers and aggressive fathers, I can't help but be reminded of how far our understanding of sexuality has come, because those claims are simply untenable. But the fact of the matter is, we see a strong, healthy debate between differing viewpoints - even though the claims of one side of the debate have since been proven quite seriously flawed.

At the end of the day, this is like if the decision of a major medical society to abandon racist beliefs about the shape of an African-American's skull coincided with large-scale protests from African-Americans. Sure, I'm sure you could point to the political pressures involve and complain about it, but the fact of the matter is, they were wrong, and correcting that error was the right thing to do.

So all the people citing conspiracy apparently think that the 1970s-ish homosexual and/or transgender lobby had more political and coercive clout than the 1970s-ish TOBACCO LOBBY to influence medical findings?

Seriously?

 

[The Cadet]

So all the people citing conspiracy apparently think that the 1970s-ish homosexual and/or transgender lobby had more political and coercive clout than the 1970s-ish TOBACCO LOBBY to influence medical findings?

Seriously?

Yeah, this is where it gets ridiculous. Not only was the 1970s LGBT lobby (and let's pause for a moment to remember that in 1970, exactly one state did not have a law against sodomy under which gay people could be prosecuted) strong enough to turn the tide of psychological research and corrupt an entire field for generations to come with absolutely no sign of a sea change from new data despite their current understanding allegedly being wrong, but they also were stronger than any attempts by the Christian lobbies - groups with far more backing and funding - to overturn this.

What a bizarre world, where medical understanding is determined by lobbies, but the more powerful lobby still cleanly loses. Weird.

 

[rjs330]

So its not normal.. so what? I don't understand why you're upset at the fact that not everyone is like you..


The thinking people? LOL.. When you say "thinking people", are you referring to the physicist and other scientists who work to make everyone's lives better and figure out how the universe works? Or are you referring to those groups of people who believe in and follow a book written 2000 years ago by people who wiped their rear ends with their hands and thought the earth was flat? Which thinkers?????

And just so you understand, no change in a society has ever occurred without loud and boisterous action. That's HOW you get the ball rolling. When that doesn't work, you pick up a gun and start killing the people who oppose you.. (that's called revolutionary war)..

What is obvious to normal "thinking people" is that those who believe in writings that are thousands of years old and take it upon themselves to base their lives on those writings are not thinking the same way.


Its an illness eh? ROFLMAO..

Ok.. lets "think" about this.. I'm one of those "thinkers"..
What about people in wheel chairs? Should we not make things accessible to them?
What about people born deaf or blind.. that's certainly not normal.. Should we just tell them too bad? You're not like us so screw you.. We're not going to change our society to fit your "illness"???

Oh, how about autistic folks? Should we not cater to them either? Sorry people, we don't allow others who are different to get married or share their life together.

Color blind? Nope, you can't get married or drive a care or get health insurance because you're different than us.

Or we can go another direction..
How about people that are born prodigies? Some of these people have skills that are so outside of what is normal we have to make special accommodations for them. Should we just say tough luck, you have to fall into line with the rest of us..???

Sounds to me like your only problem is with the sexuality of others.. Which really is a problem,, for you.. Because most "thinkers" don't give a rats behind what you do for sex.

There's an old one line quip.. "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"... Do you really want to live your life that way? Or be a "thinker" ???

Listen, and here is where you argument fails. Your accusation that I'm upset over anyone else not like me is a fraud. And by the way a very common way for the left,to attack us. Instead of addressing the issue, start accusing us of all kinds of nonsense. Nice try but it doesn't fly sorry.

Common sense prevails. I have never stated that left handers aren't normal, nor that we,shouldn't help the handicapped etc. Common sense and compassion prevails. Common sense says DNA or perhaps an unfortunate accident has caused the person to be handicapped. But we don't say the handicapped person is normal. They are not, they are handicapped. But we have compassion for them and try to help them function as normally as possible within the confines of their handicap. And we should.

DNA also determines our sex. Male or female. Normality states males and females are attracted to each other for the propagation of the species. Males are born with,male parts and male testosterone etc and females with,female parts and estrogen etc. These two parts for perfectly for the propagation of the species. Common sense. Now, what happens with transgenders? They are born as male or female, but then want to be the opposite. Why? It's a defect. Where does this defect take place? In the mind. A mental illness. So what do we do? Applaud the mental defect. Say how wonderful it is and tell the person they are normal and go ahead and start mutilating their bodies and pumping stuff into,them to utterly change who they are because of the sickness,in their mind. Not only that we then tell the rest of us that we have to cater to them even before they have completed the process by allowing them into our showers and bathrooms.

Look if they want to mutilate themselves go ahead. It's a free country. But don't walk into the oposite sex bathroom until they are done becoming the sex they want. But it's not normal. There's no effect to me if someone wants to change their sex until a dude walks into my daughter's locker room and want to take a,shower with her. It freaks her out. Common sense. And people who don't see that have none.

 

[rjs330]

So all the people citing conspiracy apparently think that the 1970s-ish homosexual and/or transgender lobby had more political and coercive clout than the 1970s-ish TOBACCO LOBBY to influence medical findings?

Seriously?

Yes the gay community pushed the psych community to,change its stance. That's only one of the MANY articles about what happened back then.

 

[The Cadet]

Common sense prevails.

"Common sense" told us that aristotelian physics are accurate.
"Common sense" told us that the sun goes around the earth.
"Common sense" told us that the earth was flat.
"Common sense" tells us that if we've lost a dice roll 6 times in a row, our lucky roll must be just around the corner.
"Common sense" is almost always wrong, because "common sense" is the last refuge of ideas that cannot be upheld through any other means. If you had a good reason for these claims, and not just your gut feeling and internal biases, you would give us that, rather than appealing to common sense.

DNA also determines our sex. Male or female.

Right, but we're not talking about sex. We're talking about gender, which is related but distinct. "Common sense" does not magically make this go away.

They are born as make or female, but then want to be the opposite. Why? It's a defect.

If it doesn't harm them, then on what basis do you call it a "defect"? See, one of the things we have to be very careful about when talking about mental illness is how we classify things, and how we refer to terms. Is it necessarily a defect if someone's gender and sex does not line up? Well, if it doesn't hurt them, then it's harmless, and clearly this is a thing that happens, so how can we reasonably call it a defect? And please, don't appeal to common sense. Actually find a reason.

Now, in the cases where it does cause harm, then yes, we can speak of a mental illness. Because it fulfills the necessary conditions. But the problem there is not "their gender doesn't match up with their sex", the problem is "their gender not matching up with their sex causes them harm". Nothing else there is your business or anyone else's business.

So what do we do?

I've outlined the treatment modalities. Assuming you care about the well-being of the patient, these treatments help. A lot. They resolve the dysphoria by changing their sex to match their gender, and studies have consistently found positive results from this.

If you have an alternative, as said, please, by all means, share with the class - I'm willing to bet quite a few people would be very happy to not have to deal with the bigotry and hatred trans people constantly have to put up with.

And if you don't care about their wellbeing, then might I kindly suggest that the entire world would be better off if you didn't speak on the subject?

There's no effect to me if you want to change your sex until you as a dude walk into my daughter's locker room and want to take a,shower with her. It freaks her out.

Aww, that's awful. I feel so sorry for your daughter.

Oh wait, no I don't. The vast majority of trans people surveyed have reported being harassed or assaulted while in public restrooms. Let's keep things in perspective here, okay? The fact that your daughter doesn't understand the concept of gender fluidity or gender dysphoria is unfortunate, but it's something you can teach her. If my MTF friend goes into the men's bathroom, the bathroom of her sex, chances are good she's going to face threats of violence or sexual harassment - threats that far too many people will gladly make good on.

 

[The Cadet]

Yes the gay community pushed the psych community to,change its stance. That's only one of the MANY articles about what happened back then.

Interesting. Does that one explain how homosexuality contains inherent harm, a necessary condition to qualify as a mental disorder?

 

[Murby]

Look if they want to mutilate themselves go ahead. It's a free country. But don't walk into the oposite sex bathroom until they are done becoming the sex they want. But it's not normal. There's no effect to me if someone wants to change their sex until a dude walks into my daughter's locker room and want to take a,shower with her. It freaks her out. Common sense. And people who don't see that have none.

As far as the locker room is concerned, as I posted earlier in this thread.. the only thing that should matter is what's hanging (or not) between your legs....
But if a guy feels so much like a woman that he chops that off, then I think that's good enough to turn into a woman and have all the rights that go with it.

 

[tatteredsoul]

It was so predictable. When liberals make laws they never consider enforcement of the law. Instead they believe everyone will obey a law just because they made the law.

In no way am I trying to derail, but your point is exactly why it drives me crazy the call and cries for more gun control when criminals shoot a place up.

Everyone will not obey law just because it is law, and even more there are people waiting to exploit the weak foundations and cracks in laws such as gender neutral facilities.

 

[Mayzoo]

Why would I do that? Does the opinion of a single guy suddenly equal the opinion of millions of men?

Some people sure wouldn't mind a girl looking at their penis or something, but what about the ones that do?

Or - since everybody loved to bring this up - what about little boys? What if that woman just goes on there to fulfil her pedophile fantasies?

Oh right: if you're suffering from Pedophilia, you usually don't prefer any gender, so children will be unsafe no matter what, and this rule wouldn't change a thing...


Are we really still in that view that all men are perverts and want to have sex with or see a naked woman 24/7?
Do we still see women as only victims?

Last time checked, many here believe all men are savages and closet perverts who either are barely able to contain themselves and could tip any second, or they simply cannot control their urges and will do anything to exploit/abuse women. Women, by contrast, are not offenders.

Personally, I would have thought all men would have taken offence to this, but oddly many do not. I guess those few who are not outraged by this accusation actually fit the description, but I am really simply perplexed, so I am just guessing.

I have been on a break from reading these types of threads because they are so depressing and they are so degrading to men that my tolerance for them is limited.