Feminism is not compatible with Christianity?

[FreeinChrist]

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[mkgal1]

mmbattlestar~It sounds as if your eyes were opened a bit when you saw how a one-sided marriage can be a great environment for abuse to flourish.....correct? To me.....that's really the heart of the issue. Abuse comes in a variety of degrees (isolating from friends/stifling personal creativity/devaluing opinions/silent treatment to punish/controlling finances-- as a few examples----->physical abuse).

I'd really like it if this discussion could remain civil (and I'm sorry you felt your opinons were mocked and disrespected)---you're right, that shouldn't happen just b/c you hold a different set of beliefs.

It was marital abuse that opened my eyes to the problem with a one-sided marriage (where one person holds the "authority" instead of God being the only authority for the two). With a mutual relationship, there's sort of a checks and balances to maintain love and keep selfishness & pride in check. To me.....it sounds as if you and your wife have mutually agreed that attacking each other isn't going to be tolerated (right)? Te're'sa seems to be describing what (I believe) a healthy marriage ought to look like (protecting love).

I'd encourage you to peek around at articles about abuse in the church. Here are some links (if you and your wife are interested):

http://nakedpastor.com/2015/04/julie-mcmahon-this-is-my-story-this-is-my-song/

http://christiancounsellingcentre.c.../the-silent-killer-of-christian-marriages.pdf

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Respect is earned.. A Y chromosome does not automatically confer respect.

Love is earned. An X chromosome does not entitle one to love.

How does that sound? Not so great, right. You can't have it both ways. Love given to a wife or respect given to a husband is not conditioned on performance.

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," (Because I said so, God)

"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (Because I said so, God)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In my experience, men who feel so intimidated by strong women usually bleat about feminism to cover their own insecurity.

Interesting thought, and I certainly can't speak for anyone else, but I've personally never felt intimidated by feminists. In my experience, I have found them unattractive and angry.

On the flip side, it's entirely possible that insecure and/or effeminate men are attracted to feminists, because they may not feel comfortable or strong enough to take the lead as God intended.

There's more than one way to look at this. Does a "strong" woman repel most men, even strong men, so she is left with only compliant men as options for marraige?

 

[Job8]

Men weren't willing to work with women until women became very, very vocal and took direct action to force men to grant them equality. Read a history book sometime.

Now we come to the heart of the issue, which is the fact that all human beings are sinners. Therefore men exploited women (as well as men), and women "forced" men to stop their exploitation.

But this does not address the issue of whether Feminism is compatible with Christianity. A Christian man by definition is forbidden from exploiting anyone, but Paul speaks of "this present evil world" and what you have mentioned pertain to that world of humanity.

Satan wants men and women to believe that they are at war with each other, and in fact instigates that warfare. What Christian men and women should clearly understand is that all Christians are in a spiritual battle with evil and demonic forces, and one of the stratagems of these spirits is to created dissension and hostility between husbands and wives.

But God has already provided the remedy. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, but wives are to submit themselves to their husbands as unto Christ. Unfortunately too many wives have a serious problem with this, because the flesh always rebels against the Spirit.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

In my experience, men who feel so intimidated by strong women usually bleat about feminism to cover their own insecurity.

Interesting thought, and I certainly can't speak for anyone else, but I've personally never felt intimidated by feminists.

Um, 'thatbrian', didn't you just sort of make her point?

 

[ValleyGal]

Love is earned. An X chromosome does not entitle one to love.

How doe that sound? Not so great, right. You can't have it both ways. Love given to a wife or respect given to a husband is not conditioned on performance.

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," (Because I said so, God)

"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (Because I said so, God)

In a sense, love is actually earned. God chose Abram because of his righteousness. God chose Noah because of his righteousness. We know that righteousness is attractive to God.

In the same way, a man will base his pursuit of a wife on what he finds attractive. Iow, she possesses qualities that he wants to pursue, and he does. But she does not typically reciprocate unless she also finds something attractive about him - this is primarily based on how well she believes he will love her and how trustworthy she finds him. These are both "earned" during their "getting to know you" phase of the relationship, any prior knowledge, the input of friends, family, etc. It is all very much "earned."

God gave the command for men to love their wives because men made the choice to marry her, driven by love, and so he should always nurture thoughts and feelings that maintain that love. If a woman finds her suitor worthy of her trust and respect, then she will reciprocate.

What happens if either of them becomes unlovable / untrustworthy or lacks respectability? They should try to work it out, and for those who are in Christ and are concerned with becoming more obedient to the Word, then they will not point the finger in blame, but take responsibility for asking God "search me, Oh, God and know my heart." When we listen to God, he will show us the plank we need to remove from our own eyes before we seek to take the speck out of our spouse's eyes. When this pattern goes awry is when real marriage trouble starts and can lead to divorce - and sometimes with good reason. There is evidence of this in Pr. 31 - the husband of the ideal wife is respectable and well-respected.

As for submission, Eph 5:21 clearly states that submission is mutual. How easy it would be for men to submit (yield to his wife for her best interest - aka: LOVE) if he knows that she will admire and respect him for it. How easy it would be for women to submit (yield to her husband for his best interest - aka: RESPECT) if she knows that she can trust his capacity to love her.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Now we come to the heart of the issue, which is the fact that all human beings are sinners. Therefore men exploited women (as well as men), and women "forced" men to stop their exploitation.

But this does not address the issue of whether Feminism is compatible with Christianity. A Christian man by definition is forbidden from exploiting anyone, but Paul speaks of "this present evil world" and what you have mentioned pertain to that world of humanity.

Satan wants men and women to believe that they are at war with each other, and in fact instigates that warfare. What Christian men and women should clearly understand is that all Christians are in a spiritual battle with evil and demonic forces, and one of the stratagems of these spirits is to created dissension and hostility between husbands and wives.

But God has already provided the remedy. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, but wives are to submit themselves to their husbands as unto Christ. Unfortunately too many wives have a serious problem with this, because the flesh always rebels against the Spirit.

Okay, now that we are at the "heart of the issue", Ephesians 5 has a lot more to say about love among the collective church. I'm looking at the chapter as a whole. Paul sets up the section on submission way before we think he does, and love is the central theme of the chapter from the first verse. In that context, husbands have a lot more to study and meditate on than the women do, frankly, as it comes to love. The command given by Paul to the husbands is so loaded that we, many times, find it simpler to focus on the duty of the wife - whether they are "holding up their end" as it were. Feminism is a great diversion to do just that. If I can find something to fault my wife for, then that clears me of the responsibility of truly examining myself according to the standard given to me as the husband.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Seems to me that the men want the submission but have no clue how to love. Wifely "submission" is one verse
...then Paul takes a paragraph or two explaining the husband's responsibility.

Yes I am a feminist. Yes I am married to the strongest man I know. I come from a family full of strong men and women who have overcome more adversity than you can imagine, including coming to the US with two little boys, on a boat, not speaking the language and becoming successful. That's the stock I come from, a family full of tough people. My mother worked first, teaching piano and my father entering an apprenticeship. My father cooked, cleaned and took care of my brothers while he studied to learn the language. THAT is love, sacrificial love.
My husband was raised by a woman who didn't even have a high school diploma when her husband was killed in VietNam. She got her GED, went to college and worked as a teacher while raising 4 children.

Those women are the women who I look up to, they were feminists long before being a feminist was cool. I am proud to continue in their legacy.

My husband and I have a wonderful (now) marriage where I am able to fully love and respect the man he has become. My husband loves me beyond measure. If, as a feminist, that means I have a lousy marriage, then I'd rather have my lousy marriage as it is than a so-called "biblical" marriage.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Oh, and the only men I have ever fought against are Carlos, Jose, Billy and Alex, my brothers. They are the ones who toughened me up, who showed me how to be independent, how to pursue my dreams.

So...if you want to know who turned me into a feminist, there you are...

 

[Job8]

So...if you want to know who turned me into a feminist, there you are...

Well shame on them. But you can always repent of your Feminism.

 

[mkgal1]

Did all that are posting in this thread take notice of *what definition* we are using for "feminism" in this thread? Let me find it and I'll post again as a refresher.

 

[ValleyGal]

Feminism is not a sin.

 

[mkgal1]

I'm actually unaware of all the elements of each "wave" of feminism. I thought it was as simple as "equal rights---no stereotypical roles/descriptions based on gender---honoring/loving all people---not being a respector of certain groups and giving preferential treatment".

Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

Feminism is what garnered women the right to vote, and after former slaves/black males, in America.

If the Christian persepctive is that the Bible is the breath of God, or inspired by God, and God said in his word that he shows no partiality, then the Christian can't cherry pick what they'll believe is in there because they don't believe women have a right to be equal to males. While claiming God's word says so.

I am a feminist and some extreme forms of feminism are distasteful to me as well. I regard biblical patriarchy and the misogyny that sometimes goes with it as societal norms only. We are not living in the ancient Mideast two to three thousand years ago.

Any organization, religious or secular and including marriage, that fails to include women in leadership roles right up to the very top is guilty of several evils. First, it is the insult to the women themselves by viewing them as less worthy. Second, it is the insult to God by denigrating half of God’s creation. If we continue to treat women in this way, then the human race is condemned to stand on one foot, see with one eye, hear with one ear and think with one half the human mind ---- and it shows.

These are the posts that most clearly (IMO) define what we're associating with the term "feminism".

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Well shame on them. But you can always repent of your Feminism.

Repent of what? A great marriage? A satisfying personal and professional life? Making enough money to retire at 51? Of being able to diagnose and repair almost anything? Of loving sports? Of being able to stand up for myself?

Hmmm, can't seem to find any sins there.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I am going to upset ALL the MRAs here.

I have made more money in the last 25 years than you can hope to make in a lifetime. I have made and given away millions.

I can build a car from just a garage of parts.

I have NO debt. Not even a mortgage.

I have a husband who LOVES me, deeply. I love my husband beyond all reason.

I live simply, love fully and kneel at the feet of my Savior.

This feminist has lived her life to the fullest. My only regret is not being able to have children...however that is between God and me.

 

[LaSorcia]

Look, It's simple. I ask that you please do not mock me, you don't see me mocking you for your views do you?

I've tried to achieve peace with you and other angry Feminists in this and other threads. But, It's clear that it isn't going to happen because you're all stuck in your evil hypocritical ways.

Cool, only I DID. It turns out, I DO have evidence of how that particular passage can be interpreted differently and how I did take the entire bible into account. Here it is:

http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015...sue-a-career-you-may-fail-the-christian-race/

I won't mock anyone usually. I have my bad days though, just like anyone else.

I would like to say that not all, or even most (in my experience) feminists are angry. I've found that that they are often exasperated, innured and jaded, but not angry unless they have recently experienced male hate/violence.

Also, I have found that many people confuse culturally prescribed gender roles with biblical ones. I also know that some folks are very happy with traditionally prescribed roles. I do have a problem with that though, only when folks say that I (and my hubby) are supposed to live our lives that way because it's biblical, even when it's not.

Thanks for listening. It sounds like you don't abuse your wife, even if I disagree with your views. That's why God gave me my spouse, and you yours.

 

[Dave-W]

Ok...first you brag that your mother ran a business, blah blah blah. Then you get informed that feminism made that possible and you claim that its satanic and infer that I am a satanist. Try RESPECT. You'll get a whole lot further.

I see this confusion stemming from conflating 2 different things going under the name of "feminism." JackRT wrote "I am a feminist and some extreme forms of feminism are distasteful to me as well."

I submit that what he calls the "extreme forms" are the true feminism and are very sinful and evil.
But the "less extreme" forms which most here seem to be in support of (myself included) I would not call feminism at all - rather it is just plain just, right and basic human rights.

I remember seeing women who had great families and loving husbands leaving them (tearfully) in order to fight for basic human rights for women.
I remember Helen Ready singing the feminist anthem "I am Woman;" and then being condemned as a traitor to "the cause" by those who previously hailed her when she got pregnant. (condemned for having sex with a ..... man)

SO I have seen the true feminism. Let us not conflate that extremism by also calling something less "feminism".

 

[JackRT]

But the "less extreme" forms which most here seem to be in support of (myself included) I would not call feminism at all - rather it is just plain just, right and basic human rights.

What I call feminism is just what it started out to be --- a fight for women's suffrage, to be treated equally before the law, equal pay for equal work, etc. More recently we have seen a few (very few) feminists become radicalized and extreme in their views and in their man hating. THAT is what I would say is not true feminism.

 

[squirrel123]

I submit that what he calls the "extreme forms" are the true feminism and are very sinful and evil.

Merriam-Webster:

Full Definition of feminism

1. 1: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
   
   
2. 2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

I think the word you are looking for is "Misandry".

Feminism is about equality. Not about hating men.

But of course, I'm only a woman. And men get to define what TRUE feminism is.