The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

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As I pointed out, no one has an excuse for not believing that God exists, is the Creator, and should believe what He promises. How is that not relevant to your question? It directly answers your question.

All Calvinists seem to focus on is why why why do some believe and others not. Doesn't matter. The point is that no one has any excuse for not believing.

And the Calvinist view, that God chooses (elects) who will believe, removes man's responsibility from man in response to God's initiation.

If God chooses who will believe, then HOW in the world could or would God hold man accountable for not believing? Doesn't make sense.

The ONLY REASON God does hold man accountable is because man has no excuse for not believing. God has removed any reason for an excuse.

Man's accountability before God demonstrates man's freedom to choose for or against God.

Yes, I too agree that God has made Himself quite clear. The question is, why do they not see God? What causes them to not see God? Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?

Secondly, believing in God...doesn't get you saved. Many believe in God and are not saved.

 

[sdowney717]

God is a witness to His own self in the things that God has made, His power and majesty displayed throughout the earth and heavens.
There is no excuse for all mankind to not honor God and be thankful.
They desire evil things so they are given over to evil things.
By their own evil natures, all mankind is corrupt, and refuses to repent of their evil, fact is they approve of doing evil and certainly can not love Christ.
Romans 1
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Then we read Christ's own word about men in John 3, that they love the darkness.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Yet the ones who do come to Christ, in v21, tell us God is working in them, their deeds are clearly seen that these deeds have been done in God.

John 3:21 English Standard Version (ESV)
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John 3:21 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

John 3:21Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
21 But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him].

Those who are of the truth will acknowledge that it is God who is at work within us to do His good pleasure.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hey Guys, in Luke 17:3-4 Jesus tells the disciples to forgive someone seven times in the same day if they ask forgiveness, that blows the disciples minds and they said, "Lord increase our faith"! Jesus then goes on to say, which of you, if you have a slave plowing or feeding cattle in the field, when he comes in from the field will tell him to sit down and eat, but rather you will tell him, clean yourself up, put on the proper clothes and serve me while I eat and drink, then when I am finished, you may eat and drink. Do you thank the slave for doing that which was commanded him, I don't think so. You to, when have done all that which was commanded you, say, "we are unworthy slaves and we have only that which was our duty to do". What Jesus is saying is, If I tell you to forgive some seven times or seven hundred times, do what I tell you to do, you are a slave. If I tell you to cast that mountain into the sea, tell it to be cast in the sea, it will happen because it is my Word backing you up. The Word of God will not come back void Isaiah 55:11. The reason people do not go around casting mountains is because God has not commanded them to do so. The disciples said Lord increase our faith, and Jesus said do what I command you to do, and don't expect a thank you, you are a slave. Now, the reason I said it was the best definition was because it was from the Lord Himself. The second best is Hebrews 11:1. The problem we have is not the Bible, the problem we have is that our definitions have changed meaning over time. When I first became a Christian, the only Bible I had was an NASV (New American Standard Version), which I loved. But, ten years into my walk I started reading the King James because I like the old English. If you have the chance to watch the BBC documentary called The King James Bible, please watch it, it is amazing. King James, being the King, made Protestant Reformists and Catholic monks work together to translate the KJV, and they didn't like it, but if the king commands it, you do it or else. It was a God thing, and I will tell you why. As I said before, the Bible is not the problem, it is our definitions have changed. I am going to use the KJV to break down Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of thing hoped for, the evidence of thins not seen. Ok, let's look at this word substance. Today's definition is, "the stuff that makes up something". We would all agree with that, but look at this word SUBSTANCE. Sub-Stance, two words, "Sub" meaning "Under" and "Stance" meaning "To Stand", literally meaning to stand under. The Greek word for substance is the word "Hupostasis", and it means "to stand under the authority of something". The KJV translated it perfect, it is our definitions that have changed. The word "Hope" is another word that has changed meaning, when we think of hope we think of something that may or may not happen, but, we would like it to happen, we "Hope" it will happen. The original meaning of the word "hope" is a guaranteed thing. Romans 10:17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. From where does faith come? It comes from hearing the Word of God. So then, who's guarantee is it? It is God's guarantee, and His Word will not come back void, it will do what he has commanded. Ok, now let me translate all of this. Faith is standing under the authority of the Word of God, for the things God has guaranteed He will do for those who stand under the authority of His Word. If you will obey God, He will do what He has guaranteed he will do. The reason most of us do not receive those promises of God is because we quit to soon. This is where I first started to understand faith, Peter walking on water. Peter said, "Lord if it is you, command me to come to you on the water", and Jesus said come. Peter only obeyed Christ a little, because he got scared and quit walking, that's why he started sinking, and Jesus said ye of little faith. Why, because he only obeyed a little. Faith comes from the Word of God, Jesus said come, (this was the faith given to Peter) and Peter only came a little. I Pray this helps. The rest of Heb 11:1 I will have to finish up later, have to go to work. I have written a book called "Defining Faith" subtitle..."Because God Only Knows", praying it will go to publishing soon. It is hard to publish a Christian book if your not a Scholar in theology, but that's ok because it is a God thing anyway. It has to be because I'm not that smart. God Bless brother, Pray that helps

Not much I'm afraid.

I still don't see the definition of faith in the Luke 17:5-7. Lots of explanation by you. But, so far as I can see, it amounted to nothing to help explain how that is a definition of faith - let alone the best definition in the Bible as you said it was.

Nothing in your exposition of the Hebrews passage changes the fact that it is a clear cut definition of faith just as it claims to be outright.

What might clarify things (and save a whole lot of time) would be if you just tell everyone in plain every day words what faith is. If you can't do that for us outright - all the long posts in the world wouldn't help.

 

[Extraneous]

Biblical "hope" is actually a 'confident expectation'. The Greek word isn't at all how we use the word today in English.

Having a confident expectation and wishing for something are 2 very different things.


Is your hope a wish, or a confident expectation?

I guess we'll find out, some day.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I agree with your post. Imo, if we see Christ through logical sunglasses, we will never see enough to have a relationship with Him.

Undoubtedly, if it is God Himself (Christ) we are talking about - logic takes 2nd place to relationship. We can and should have a relationship with Him whether or not we see everything about Him as perfectly logical.

On the other hand - if words mean anything at all - we have to look at any particular statement through logical glasses. Otherwise we will never be able to understand what is and what is not a correct conclusion regarding any particular passage or combination of passages that make up doctrine.

Regarding OSAS -- one is either saved always after being saved or one is not saved always after being saved.

The only way around it is if you say that there is no initial time of salvation in the basic sense (the Philippian jailer and the thief on the cross would object to that idea).

Never the less - I'm thinking that that may be where you are coming from. I hope I'm wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong so we can get this right out front.

 

[Rick Otto]

Undoubtedly, if it is God Himself (Christ) we are talking about - logic takes 2nd place to relationship. We can and should have a relationship with Him whether or not we see everything about Him as perfectly logical.

On the other hand - if words mean anything at all - we have to look at any particular statement through logical glasses. Otherwise we will never be able to understand what is and what is not a correct conclusion regarding any particular passage or combination of passages that make up doctrine.

Regarding OSAS -- one is either saved always after being saved or one is not saved always after being saved.

The only way around it is if you say that there is no initial time of salvation in the basic sense (the Philippian jailer and the thief on the cross would object to that idea).

Never the less - I'm thinking that that may be where you are coming from. I hope I'm wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong so we can get this right out front.

Why would the jailer and thief object?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Why would the jailer and thief object?

Because they were guaranteed by the Lord's Word that they would be saved from the time they first believed on Christ.

I was also guaranteed the same thing.

Although salvation, in all of it's aspects, is ongoing throughout life - there was and is an initial time of beginning when we pass from death unto life and never will again come into condemnation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, I too agree that God has made Himself quite clear. The question is, why do they not see God?

Because they simply do not want to see Him. Just as Rom 1 explains.

What causes them to not see God?

Their own lack of interest.

[QUTOE] Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?[/QUOTE]
A lot of things.

Secondly, believing in God...doesn't get you saved. Many believe in God and are not saved.

That's correct. But unless one recognizes the existence of God as Creator, there is no issue of believing the gospel message. Because Jesus is God and one must believe that He is as part of saving faith (Jn 20:31).

If one only thinks that Jesus was a really good guy, a great teacher, etc, that belief won't save them.

The point is, God has provided everything necessary so that no human being has any excuse.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?

 

[Rick Otto]

Because they were guaranteed by the Lord's Word that they would be saved from the time they first believed on Christ.

I was also guaranteed the same thing.

Although salvation, in all of it's aspects, is ongoing throughout life - there was and is an initial time of beginning when we pass from death unto life and never will again come into condemnation.

With respect, I just think you confused being saved with maturing in your faith.
Even lost sheep are still sheep. They do not morph into goats.
OSAS = once a sheep, always a sheep. lol

 

[iron2iron]

Not much I'm afraid.

I still don't see the definition of faith in the Luke 17:5-7. Lots of explanation by you. But, so far as I can see, it amounted to nothing to help explain how that is a definition of faith - let alone the best definition in the Bible as you said it was.

Nothing in your exposition of the Hebrews passage changes the fact that it is a clear cut definition of faith just as it claims to be outright.

What might clarify things (and save a whole lot of time) would be if you just tell everyone in plain every day words what faith is. If you can't do that for us outright - all the long posts in the world wouldn't help.

OK! In a nutshell, faith is doing what God tells you to do. Even if you don't trust Him or believe (give mental consent) Him. The word believe means doing not thinking. Faith is a noun, its what God gives you, it is a commandment. If you obey that commandment means you believe. Please tell me that helps.

 

[iron2iron]

Yes, I too agree that God has made Himself quite clear. The question is, why do they not see God? What causes them to not see God? Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?

Secondly, believing in God...doesn't get you saved. Many believe in God and are not saved.

Rev 3:20 Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, they know there is a God, but act like they don't hear the knocking. That is why there will be no one with an excuse on Judgment Day.

 

[iron2iron]

Amen! What I have is something I want to spend uninterrupted time to discuss. today my kids are visiting us. So I'll start a thread about Faith on Monday morning, and hope Jason, FG2, iron2iron, and others will participate. Be ready for your foundational understandings to be rocked to the core. No pride just understandings. May this be Gods will.

Amen!

 

[iron2iron]

I said this:
"In that post, I challenged your view of grace. And all you could come up with was a cat yawning."

OK, so you're shocked to know what grace is and means? That figures.

Those with your views don't undestand grace at all. If God demands attaining sinless perfection to be saved, there's no grace in that.

Yep! And that would also make the Apostle John a liar, cause He said If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

 

[sdowney717]

Because they simply do not want to see Him. Just as Rom 1 explains.

Do you realize that if God were the One who caused man to believe, then those who don't believe cannot be held responsible for not believing?

No, that is not true. On the OT people who sinned in ignorance God holds accountable, they had to offer sacrifice.
And how about any worldwide who has never heard of Christ, God still holds them to account for not believing, they die in their sins.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, I too agree that God has made Himself quite clear. The question is, why do they not see God? What causes them to not see God? Was it a college professor? Is it sin? Is it their unrighteousness?

Secondly, believing in God...doesn't get you saved. Many believe in God and are not saved.

I think in many cases it's pride. Like they don't need anyone else. The other thing is that some do not want to think there is anything higher in what science says that exist than man.

 

[iron2iron]

No, that is not true. On the OT people who sinned in ignorance God holds accountable, they had to offer sacrifice.
And how about any worldwide who has never heard of Christ, God still holds them to account for not believing, they die in their sins.

So do you believe there will be people in Heaven who have never heard the name of Christ?

 

[sdowney717]

So do you believe there will be people in Heaven who have never heard the name of Christ?

No I do not.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Rev 3:20 Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, they know there is a God, but act like they don't hear the knocking. That is why there will be no one with an excuse on Judgment Day.

This is one of the most yanked out of context and misunderstood verses in the Bible. This was written to a church, not for a "revival" meeting. This is a letter to a church. Read it again, for the first time, see who it's addressed to and see how it ends.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

 

[EmSw]

This is one of the most yanked out of context and misunderstood verses in the Bible. This was written to a church, not for a "revival" meeting. This is a letter to a church. Read it again, for the first time, see who it's addressed to and see how it ends.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Just as Jesus said, those of the church can be spewed out of His mouth, and they need to overcome, that is, do something of their own.

 

[ToBeLoved]

With respect, I just think you confused being saved with maturing in your faith.
Even lost sheep are still sheep. They do not morph into goats.
OSAS = once a sheep, always a sheep. lol

OSAS = Once a sheep, always a sheep.

I have to remember that one. Very cute