Delaware judge: priest-penitent privilege may be unconstitutional

[MoonlessNight]

I think an exception to the priest-patient privilege can be made for child sexual abuse. The only problem would be if the child victim was not abused and simply claimed it. Let's face it, sometimes people will lie about things like that, and if you're a priest you are only able to take that person's word for it. But that's another issue.

Let me know what sacraments your Church has. I will tell you how I think that the government should interfere with them.

 

[Tallguy88]

And countless children for generations have been sexually abused and scarred for life because of that seal and the pervert priests responsible for their assaults.

This thread isn't about pervert priests. It's about confession to a priest.

 

[Rhamiel]

Why so? That privileged communication is not just protected in the RCC; it could apply to confession between a congregational leader and any member of his/her congregation regardless of faith community. That would be the wide reading of the law as referenced in the article.

To interpret it narrowly, only groups that have priests (RCC, Lutheran, Anglican/Episcopal and Jewish) would be covered. That WOULD be unconstitutional.
However, in Judaism, the priests (Kohenim) are rarely congregational leaders.

The law here in Maryland covers all congregational leaders, but the "penitent" must be a member of the leader's congregation.

well the role the person has gives rise to the confidentiality

as pointed out before, if I just tell someone else something, they can (and have an obligation) to report my crimes
but if I tell my lawyer something, it is confidential
it is not because a lawyer is some kind of modern baron and is exempt from the laws of us peasants lol

it is based on the relationship
same with a lot (all?) states have laws about husbands and wives not being forced to testify against the other in court

it is about the nature of the relationship

If the child tells the priest in Confession, then he cannot say. If the child tells him outside of confession, then I believe he can report it. I have heard of priests asking people in confession to tell them something again outside of confession as a workaround.

true, the priest is not even supposed to bring this up with the penitent outside of the confessional

 

[Rhamiel]

Let me know what sacraments your Church has. I will tell you how I think that the government should interfere with them.

grand vizier is a nice guy
he is just saying what a lot of people think

"yeah confession is a good thing.... but I mean come on, child abuse, there is nothing worse then that, I mean of course we have to make an exception for that"

I mean a LOT of people think like this and we should take their concerns seriously

@grandvizier1006
but for people who think confessional seal should be suspended for child abuse
what about murder?
I mean, imagine the pain that people feel, having a loved one murdered, never knowing who did it, never knowing if they could be coming for you next, maybe not even knowing where the loved one is buried?

what about treason? I mean treason can harm entire nations, if it is in a serious way it can change history, I mean selling nuclear secrets to terrorist group of some kind, that could wipe out entire cities

what about tax fraud?
see once you make this into a utilitarian thing, once it is "the ends justify the means" you can talk your way into almost anything

in confession a person is talking to Jesus, the priest just happens to be there
what prayers to God does the State have the right to know?

 

[MoonlessNight]

grand vizier is a nice guy
he is just saying what a lot of people think

"yeah confession is a good thing.... but I mean come on, child abuse, there is nothing worse then that, I mean of course we have to make an exception for that"

I mean a LOT of people think like this and we should take their concerns seriously

The world is where it is today exactly because "nice" people have let it happen. I don't bear much ill will towards "nice" people, because they are doing their best and have usually been ill taught, but I do lament what they accomplish.

If this ruling only appealed to those who sought the destruction of the Church (and I do suspect that that is why it came down), it would be resisted by society at large and the judge would be powerless in effect. But because it can be defended in such a way that people think that they are being "mean" if they oppose it, it will gain traction.

 

[Albion]

The seal of the confessional is a cornerstone of a sacrament in the Catholic Church. Priests have been martyred rather than violate the seal.

It's actually not part of the definition of a sacrament and not essential to the process of confession and absolution. It just makes private, anonymous confessions work better, but this is nothing Apostolic or Scriptural.

 

[Jared R]

Just so everyone's up to date... Catholic adoption agencies need to adopt to same-sex couples. Catholic colleges and charities need to provide insurance coverage for contraception. Catholic hospitals need to perform emergency abortions. Catholic priests need to break the seal of confession. These are things that are either already real or are being discussed. When a notion about public good is in conflict with a religious protection, it's no longer the impulse in US law to err on the side of religious protections.

 

[Blondepudding]

This thread isn't about pervert priests. It's about confession to a priest.

Yes, it is. And a very specific type of confession and which relates to child molestation.

 

[MoonlessNight]

It's actually not part of the definition of a sacrament and not essential to the process of confession and absolution. It just makes private, anonymous confessions work better, but this is nothing Apostolic or Scriptural.

Please lecture us some more about how the Catholic Church is getting things wrong.

Just so everyone's up to date... Catholic adoption agencies need to adopt to same-sex couples. Catholic colleges and charities need to provide insurance coverage for contraception. Catholic hospitals need to perform emergency abortions. Catholic priests need to break the seal of confession. These are things that are either already real or are being discussed. When a notion about public good is in conflict with a religious protection, it's no longer the impulse in US law to err on the side of religious protections.

This is exactly the sort of thing that I was referring to when talking about the ills that "nice" people have brought us. It would be so "mean" to restrict adoption to traditional families, or to not support the grave evil of contraception, or to avoid slaughtering innocent children. So these things are pushed, and "nice" people don't feel bad about it one bit. They don't even consider that they might feel bad about it.

When they do act to drive the Church out for good, they will be very polite about it.

 

[benedictaoo]

If the courts will be successful at this, then Churches certainly can be forced to do gay weddings.

 

[Albion]

Please lecture us some more about how the Catholic Church is getting things wrong.

What I said was that that poster was wrong. I didn't say anything there about the Catholic Church being wrong.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't understand the thinking behind this judge's ruling. It only 'privileges' one religion over others if you assume that all religions should share the same features. If other religions don't have it in the first place, of course the law surrounding it is not going to apply to them. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Not all laws are designed to apply to all people in the first place. What's next -- will we do away with the Americans with Disabilities Act because it 'privileges' disabled people over non-disabled people? That's discriminatory. I'm gonna sue. I hope I draw judge Johnston.

 

[Tallguy88]

Yes, it is. And a very specific type of confession and which relates to child molestation.

It's the only kind of confession that forgives mortal sins under ordinary circumstances. The kind most Catholics mean when they say "confession". And it's not related to cases where priests are the accused abusers, but where they hear about alleged abuse in the confessional.

It's not related to child molestation specifically, since the seal exists and is immutable regardless of the specific sin under discussion. Basically, child abuse doesn't have an exemption to the seal. As another poster pointed out, why stop at child abuse? Why not murder? That causes a greater harm to the victim. Why not adult rape? Why not treason? It's a bad slippery slope and one that has no logical limit to just child abuse.

 

[Horseless Headsman]

Priests absolutely should have to report child sex abuse and other illegal activities. Letting a child continue to be sexually abused is so morally wrong, and doesn't look good with the child sex abuse scandals and cover-ups in the Catholic Church. I don't know how a priest would be able to sleep at night knowing that a child could be getting assaulted at that very moment and that they could do something about it.

 

[Tallguy88]

Priests absolutely should have to report child sex abuse and other illegal activities. Letting a child continue to be sexually abused is so morally wrong, and doesn't look good with the child sex abuse scandals and cover-ups in the Catholic Church. I don't know how a priest would be able to sleep at night knowing that a child could be getting assaulted at that very moment and that they could do something about it.

That's not this issue. The issue is that he learned about it 8n a situation where he is absolutely unable to tell someone without the permission of the penitent. He can still report it if he finds out some other way.

 

[Horseless Headsman]

That's not this issue. The issue is that he learned about it 8n a situation where he is absolutely unable to tell someone without the permission of the penitent. He can still report it if he finds out some other way.

"If" he finds out some other way. If not, he still knows it is happening or has happened, but he won't save the child because of legalism.

 

[Tallguy88]

"If" he finds out some other way. If not, he stills knows it is happening or has happened, but he won't save the child because of legalism.

A priests primary duty is to save souls, including the souls of child rapists and murderers. If a rapist knows a priest will turn him into the authorities if he confesses his sins to God through the priest acting In Persona Christi, then he may forgo confession, die in a state of mortal sin, and go to hell. Christ's forgiveness is available to all, and so the seal of the confessional must be absolutely involitile.

Also, if a screen is used, then the priest doesn't know who is confessing to him.

 

[Rhamiel]

I do not want to downplay the horrors that have been committed by some Catholic Priests and then covered up by their Bishops
there have been serious mistakes made, and lives have been ruined

do you know where else serious sexual abuse has taken place? (of either children or adults)
public schools
within police departments
the military
universities
the foster care system
Protestant denominations

uhg
I do not know how to get this across without sounding like I am deflecting
it is like if you have 20% unemployment in one country, and that is a real problem and that is a huge number of people being hurt and it needs to be fixed
but then all you hear from a neighboring country who also has 20% unemployment is "WOW you guys are horrible, how can you live like that, your government must be SO corrupt"

 

[MoonlessNight]

What I said was that that poster was wrong. I didn't say anything there about the Catholic Church being wrong.

The seal of confession has existed for centuries in the Catholic Church and it is not going to go away in the future. It is absolutely true to say that confession and the seal of confession are bound together now and in the future. It is true that the exact time that the seal was instituted is unclear, but we are not discussing history. We are discussing the current reality of the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, your post was made in direct response to someone who said that the seal of confession was so important that priests would die rather than violate it. To say that the seal of confession is non-essential in response to it is to suggest in that context that the seal is less important than the Catholic Church makes it out to be.

If you wanted an academic discussion of the view on the seal in other churches and its historical development, this was not the correct context to bring up the topic, at least not without a more explicit explanation of your motivations.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Here's an article by Fr. William Saunders about the seal of the confessional:

The Seal of the Confessional

Source:
Catholic Education Resource Center