James says faith without works is dead.

[Sophrosyne]

You can parse the words if you like, but it is clear that James is telling us that we must put our faith into action in order to be saved.

Then Paul is a liar according to you, because he said we HAVE BEEN saved by having faith, not we WILL BE saved by faith plus works.... it is a done deal.

 

[Thursday]

Oh, brother.

All this discussion...and that's all you can say?

I'll take it as meaning I made my point pretty well. Sophrosyne did, too, and left you similarly tongue-tied, I notice.




.

You simply ignored scripture then repeated Calvinist dogma.

We are justified by works and not by faith alone, says the WORD OF GOD.

 

[Thursday]

Then Paul is a liar according to you, because he said we HAVE BEEN saved by having faith.... it is a done deal.

Not faith alone. Grace enables us to have faith and to follow the teachings of Jesus. Grace is a free gift.

Paul explicitly tells us that we will reap what we sow. Paul explicitly tells us that those who live in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

These are not difficult concepts unless you reject them. Sin can destroy your faith:

1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

1 Cor 6:9
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gaal 5:21
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Thursday]

Then Paul is a liar according to you, because he said we HAVE BEEN saved by having faith, not we WILL BE saved by faith plus works.... it is a done deal.

Paul is speaking in the present tense. Paul never says that our one time experience guarantees salvation. In fact, he says the opposite. He says we must press on for the prize. Not even he claimed to have attained the resurrection from the dead yet:

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Soyeong]

Yup, and I can not sincerely tell you that I have always loved God with my whole heart, and will always continue to do so in future. I also don't sincerely always love all my neighbors, not to mention my enemies. While I agree with you that the spirit of the law is not hard and not far, I have found obeying it perfectly rather hard. Would you conclude from this that I have no faith? I have some faith because it was given to me. That has lead to some works. I am still working on more. I don't consider myself complete in any way. You could pray for me.

Nobody stops sinning when they become a Christian, so you're in good company, but rather we stop making a practice of sinning and start making a practice of obedience and repentance. Having perfect obedience to God's law is not something we accomplish in this life, but if we have faith in God to lead us into having a perfectly holy, righteous, and good conduct, then when God completes our sanctification on the day of the Lord, we will be made like Christ in his perfect obedience.

P.S. I am not denying that faith without works is dead. I am just questioning the nature and maybe quantity of said works.

I think God's law is his instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith and the nature of the law is faith working itself out in love. Quantity has nothing to do with it.

 

[Soyeong]

I believe what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Verse 10 is needed for the complete thought, where we are made new creations in Christ not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes I did. You are ignoring the passages I posted because they prove you to be mistaken.

Grace is a gift. Salvation is for those who accept this free gift and follow Jesus.

Salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation is from disobedience to the law for the purpose of being set free to become slaves of obedience (Romans 6:16). So while we can freely come to Messiah, it the gift of salvation from sin comes with strings attached.

You confuse the following of the Jewish Law with obedience to Jesus:

Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, but rather he said he came only to do the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so Jesus didn't go off and teach his own set of commands or anything different from what the Father had commanded. If by "Jewish law" you were referring to the mountains of man-made rabbinic traditions for how to keep God's law, then you would be correct about that being different from what Jesus commanded.

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commandments is what matters.

Paul said that circumcision has value much in every way (Romans 3:1-2), but that it's value is dependent on our obedience to the law (Romans 2:25-26), so what matters is obedience to God's law.

 

[Job8]

James says faith without works is dead.

Very true. But that does not translate into good works are necessary for salvation (as some erroneously believe). Here's what James is teaching:

GENUINE FAITH---->GENUINE SALVATION---->GENUINE GOOD WORKS

"DEAD FAITH" ----->NO SALVATION-----> NO GOOD WORKS

 

[Soyeong]

That is not true. Salvation is not based on what we do, but what He has done. Our actions do not contribute to our salvation. Those who are saved will act and do according to their new heart and saved soul, but they are not saved by what they do. Their actions give evidence that they are saved, but their actions do not save them.

Salvation actually has past, present and future components (Ephesians 2:5, Philippians 2:12, Romans 5:9-10), so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin, we are being saved from ongoing sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Paul is speaking in the present tense. Paul never says that our one time experience guarantees salvation. In fact, he says the opposite. He says we must press on for the prize. Not even he claimed to have attained the resurrection from the dead yet:

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Since when do the words "have been" mean that something is happening now or in the future? Your whole argument ignores the actual definition of salvation in that it is a done deal. We HAVE BEEN saved not we WILL BE saved by faith and doing works. The fact is after one HAS BEEN saved all works required are DONE WITH.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Salvation actually has past, present and future components (Ephesians 2:5, Philippians 2:12, Romans 5:9-10), so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin, we are being saved from ongoing sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

Our salvation is imputed upon us by faith the moment we exercise faith. I see all sorts of direct scriptures about salvation and I'm sorry but they all say "do this" and you ARE saved, not "do this" and keep doing that and do something else and so on and so on and then maybe you will be saved.
All this essentially denigrates the power of the cross in that people who read the Bible think God didn't do enough so that all we would have to do to be saved is except the gift... instead of attaching strings and or saying God can take it away if you don't meet your quota of works.

 

[Soyeong]

Our salvation is imputed upon us by faith the moment we exercise faith. I see all sorts of direct scriptures about salvation and I'm sorry but they all say "do this" and you ARE saved, not "do this" and keep doing that and do something else and so on and so on and then maybe you will be saved.
All this essentially denigrates the power of the cross in that people who read the Bible think God didn't do enough so that all we would have to do to be saved is except the gift... instead of attaching strings and or saying God can take it away if you don't meet your quota of works.

Look at the tenses:

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Romans 5:9-10 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Our salvation from sin involves Christ dying on the cross to pay for the penalty of our sins, which is in the past, and which I agree is done instantly. However, we don't become sinless the moment we come to faith in Christ, so our salvation from sin also involves being saved from having a sinful conduct as we are made to be like Christ in having a sinless conduct. We will also be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord. This is not denigrating the power of the cross, on the contrary, it is showing the completeness of the power of the cross. Obedience to God has never been about meeting a certain quota, but rather they are a demonstration of our faith in God to save us from having a sinful or disobedient conduct and our faith in God to lead us into having a holy, righteous, and good conduct.

 

[EmSw]

This may be tough for you to grasp, but there are two flaws in your reasoning here. First, the underlying assumption that works are what define faith. They provide evidence of faith's presence, but they do not stand in the place of faith. Faith and works are not interchangeable.

Just as body and spirit make one, so do faith and works. Separate them and you have death.

Here's your second flaw in your reasoning. You automatically assume, and want to frame the exchange as me and basically everyone else but you, when we speak of faith we are automatically speaking of dead faith. You're trying to poison the well.

How do you know what I want to do? I don't remember telling you. James' dead faith sure gets your gourd. We better tell James to quit poisoning the well.

Are you sitting in judgment over me here? Where do you get off demanding that i demonstrate my faith on an internet discussion board? What would you have me do?

I've already been over judging you. The word and your works will judge you.

Abraham was counted righteous by faith. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. He did what God asked, and proved his faith by his works, but if the faith hadn't been present first, the works would have accounted for nothing.

What would Abraham's faith have been if he didn't have any works? How about 'DEAD'?

Where do you get off interrogating me? I made a true statement, both in the natural realm, and it applies to the spiritual realm as well. You immediately try to negate it by accusing me of something I did not say, or mean. Why? I'm thinking it's because you know that my analogy blows a hole in your false doctrine big enough to drive that horse and cart through.

If I had a dollar for every time you think someone accused you of saying something you didn't, I'd retire.

You should have stopped at 'blows' in your last sentence.

I never said anything even remotely like that, and you know it. I never said anything about a dead horse, that's YOUR spin on it. The reason you're trying to spin it, is because that little analogy actually shoots down your whole works-based salvation false doctrine.

You have much to learn if you think your analogy shoots down my doctrine.

Please show me where I said that I "want (you) to believe, a dead faith can do what a dead body can't." I never, ever said such a false, anti-biblical thing. What you are doing is lying, pure and simple. Liars do not enter Heaven.

You just don't get it, nor can you follow much of what I say.

Since it's obvious that you're agenda here is to disrupt, cause strife, and make false accusations, I will say only that when you are ready to have a constructive conversation based on what I have ACTUALLY said, without assumptions and false accusations, I will then, and only then, answer your questions. You've made several blatantly false accusations against me here, and then acted as though I were under interrogation. I do not, and will not participate any longer in a discussion with a contentious man such as yourself.

So why are judging me now? Shame, shame, shame.

 

[EmSw]

Help us out here. Who believes that? Are you referring to Universalists or to the idea that sincere pagans can be saved?

Do you believe a dead faith, that is, without works, can save?

 

[tulipbee]

Agreed. Works without faith? I don't know about that...

Next I would have to ask myself exactly what works are expected. Don't sin? I don't know if that is wholly possible for me.

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do [men] gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Holy spirit leads the elect while he looks for work powered by faith

 

[Albion]

Do you believe a dead faith, that is, without works, can save?

No, but I thought it was worth asking "Who does?"

 

[Sophrosyne]

Look at the tenses:

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Romans 5:9-10 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Our salvation from sin involves Christ dying on the cross to pay for the penalty of our sins, which is in the past, and which I agree is done instantly. However, we don't become sinless the moment we come to faith in Christ, so our salvation from sin also involves being saved from having a sinful conduct as we are made to be like Christ in having a sinless conduct. We will also be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord. This is not denigrating the power of the cross, on the contrary, it is showing the completeness of the power of the cross. Obedience to God has never been about meeting a certain quota, but rather they are a demonstration of our faith in God to save us from having a sinful or disobedient conduct and our faith in God to lead us into having a holy, righteous, and good conduct.

2 Timothy 1:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

 

[Sophrosyne]

The biggest problem I see with works based salvation is it will always be unfair to someone who is saved at 4 years old and lives to be 97 vs someone who is saved at 96 and lives to be 97. According to those who base works into salvation both are saved but one doesn't have to do over 90 years worth of works to get his salvation.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

 

[Albion]

I'd add an additional problem. No one knows how many good works are needed or which ones earn more merit than others. All that church members know, when you get right down to it, is..."do them."