Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Postvieww

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Another thing I noticed about Luke 23:30, is that not only is it very similar to Revelation 6:16. But, Luke 23:31 kind of indicates this happens when the "tree is green", leading me to believe this was past from us now. As the "tree is now dry". Obviously, these things wouldn't be common knowledge. To find the true interpretation, there will be things that have been veiled.


I do know this. There's no way we should assume that 6:16-17 is the wrath of God. As neither The Lord, John, an angel, or being from the heavens has announced this. The only people who are saying this is people who are being judged by the Lord, for their rejection of the Truth.
I'm sure it appeared as such to them, but believe they erroneously attributed this to the day of the Lord. We absolutely, should not assume that their assessment was correct, in attributing this event to the great and terrible day of the Lord. We'll be here for the wrath of satan, not the wrath of God.


I disagree that no one announced this. John wrote what he saw and what was revealed to him.

Rev 6:1 And I saw, 6:2 And I saw, 6:3 I heard, 6:5 I heard, I beheld, 6:6 And I heard and on and on , you get my point. It makes no sense to me that Christ would open this 6th for John to see and John would write down a misinterpretation of what he saw. What is the point of describing a bunch of mistaken individuals here? I think we can assume what John wrote was correct. Unless you can give a reason other than it doesn’t fit a particular theory on the order of Revelation. Can you give another example in the book of Revelation of an event described that is not true as worded?

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
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BABerean2

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Lamad says...

"Answer the question: WHO are the sheep at the judgment of the nations? Are they the "church?"

So you are saying they are the "other sheep?"

So does the rapture happen before the sheep and goat judgment or after?"

The Second Coming of Christ is a complex, one time event including the resurrection and judgment of all the dead and Christ gathering the Church unto himself.

You are either a sheep or a goat. You better know which one you are...



Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:




2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (He judges both the alive and the dead.)



Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Joh_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.



Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




If someone has to deny that members of the Church are sheep to get their doctrine to work, then they should realize there is a problem with their doctrine, since it does not agree with the words of Jesus.



Some of us cannot accept what is plainly written in God's Word.

It is best for it to be posted here for all to see.
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Riberra

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10 Reasons for a Pre Tribulation Rapture
88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.

Written by a pre-tribber

Whisenant's predictions were taken seriously in some parts of the evangelical Christian community. As the date approached, regular programming on the Christian Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) was interrupted to provide special instructions on preparing for the rapture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant


Edgar C. Whisenant (September 25, 1932 – May 16, 2001), was a former NASA engineer and Bible student who predicted the Rapture would occur in 1988, sometime between Sept. 11 and Sept. 13.[1] He published two books about this, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 and On Borrowed Time. Eventually, 300,000 copies of 88 Reasons were mailed free of charge to ministers across America, and 4.5 million copies were sold in bookstores and elsewhere. Whisenant was quoted as saying "Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong; and I say that to every preacher in town" and "f there were a king in this country and I could gamble with my life, I would stake my life on Rosh Hashana 88." [2][3]

Whisenant's predictions were taken seriously in some parts of the evangelical Christian community. As the date approached, regular programming on the Christian Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) was interrupted to provide special instructions on preparing for the rapture.

When the predicted rapture failed to occur, Whisenant followed up with later books with predictions for various dates in 1989, 1993, and 1994.[4] These books did not sell in quantity. Whisenant continued to issue various rapture predictions through 1997, but gathered little attention.


Unfulfilled religious predictions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfulfilled_religious_predictions

All these predictions have failed because none of them have taken into account Jesus's own words about His return which will be AFTER the Tribulation of those days clearly mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31.


Why pre-tribbers deliberately ingore Jesus's words and prefers pretty stories invented by men ?That must be part of the deception /departure from the truth that will prevail in the last days Churches predicted by Paul.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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Fusion77

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I disagree that no one announced this. John wrote what he saw and what was revealed to him.

Rev 6:1 And I saw, 6:2 And I saw, 6:3 I heard, 6:5 I heard, I beheld, 6:6 And I heard and on and on , you get my point. It makes no sense to me that Christ would open this 6th for John to see and John would write down a misinterpretation of what he saw. What is the point of describing a bunch of mistaken individuals here? I think we can assume what John wrote was correct. Unless you can give a reason other than it doesn’t fit a particular theory on the order of Revelation. Can you give another example in the book of Revelation of an event described that is not true as worded?

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
compare
Revelation 15:7 Revelation 16:1 Revelation 11:18. Here we can clearly see that the Wrath of God is announced, proclaimed from the heavenly realm by heavenly beings. And is recorded by John as such.

In Revelation 6:16-17 John has recorded this, yes. But, John is recording what these individuals are saying. These individuals saying this, are not heavenly beings from/in the heavenly realm. It's very possible, they have mistaken this for the wrath of God. Understand, I present this as a likely possibility, not absolute fact. From my best understanding, the wrath of God begins after the 7th trumpet, after the 2 witnesses are caught up.



But, yes we will agree to disagree.
 
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keras

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Isaiah 66:21, Isaiah 62:4-5 and Ezekiel 34:25 are errors. They are about the Israelites, not the Church. Hilarious. Even when you tried, you still didn't rightly divide Israel from the Church with these new scriptures.
Rightly divide: a catchphrase used by those who have had their beliefs challenged, in an attempt to gain the high ground and confuse the issue.
Another dreaded phrase is: Replacement Theology. This again is a red herring, a false idea that has two entities Israel and Church, whereas there has never been such a separation since Jesus came and offered salvation to everyone. The Jewish people are simply another of the many ethnic groups in the world, albeit one that God uses as a sign. They too, can become members of the Lord's people, the true Ekkelasia, by belief in God and accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, just as any other person can.
As the whole rapture theory crumbles to dust, when the truth of only one people of God is known, you have to see some of the scriptures I quoted as errors; but in fact they are not wrong at all.
 
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keras

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Rev 6:1 And I saw, 6:2 And I saw, 6:3 I heard, 6:5 I heard, I beheld, 6:6 And I heard and on and on , you get my point. It makes no sense to me that Christ would open this 6th for John to see and John would write down a misinterpretation of what he saw. What is the point of describing a bunch of mistaken individuals here? I think we can assume what John wrote was correct. Unless you can give a reason other than it doesn’t fit a particular theory on the order of Revelation. Can you give another example in the book of Revelation of an event described that is not true as worded?
Very good, Postview.
John is writing the Words of Jesus in Revelation, and only those with the agenda of all the wrath of God happening at the Return, make the tenuous assertion that those people [that is: EVERY person in the world] is mistaken or lying, when they call out: The great Day of the wrath of God has come and who can stand?
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is what Paul is referring to in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, it will come unexpectedly and will destroy the Lord's enemies. Hebrews 10:27, Romans 1:18, 2 Peter 3:7
 
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BABerean2

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In Revelation 6:16-17 John has recorded this, yes. But, John is recording what these individuals are saying. These individuals saying this, are not heavenly beings from/in the heavenly realm. It's very possible, they have mistaken this for the wrath of God.

The text says that a book is opened and John is told to "come and see" what is written in the book.


Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

John recorded what he saw in the book.

This book is a summary of things revealed later in the Book of Revelation.

The characters in chapter 6 are the very same characters in chapter 19.



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Therefore, the simplest explanation is that they are referring to the same event, at the battle of Armageddon.

.
 
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Fusion77

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The text says that a book is opened and John is told to "come and see" what is written in the book.


Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

John recorded what he saw in the book.

This book is a summary of things revealed later in the Book of Revelation.

The characters in chapter 6 are the very same characters in chapter 19.



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Therefore, the simplest explanation is that they are referring to the same event, at the battle of Armageddon.

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I don't think 6:16 is referring to the event in 19:18. It mentions nothing about the the birds coming and eating the flesh of kings in 6:16.
It looks a lot more similar to Luke 23:30 than Revelation 19:16-18. Luke 23:31 also seems to indicate it happened in the past "when the tree is green". To me it's a likely possibility, that the 6th seal already happened and that the mighty men claiming it was the wrath of God were incorrect. It's very logical, and just enough to throw most anybody off, who doesn't consider this verse very closely. I'm not saying for sure, but it's a good possibility.
 
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Fusion77

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I don't think 6:16 is referring to the event in 19:18. It mentions nothing about the the birds coming and eating the flesh of kings in 6:16.
It looks a lot more similar to Luke 23:30 than Revelation 19:16-18. Luke 23:31 also seems to indicate it happened in the past "when the tree is green". To me it's a likely possibility, that the 6th seal already happened and that the mighty men claiming it was the wrath of God were incorrect. It's very logical, and just enough to throw most anybody off, who doesn't consider this verse very closely. I'm not saying for sure, but it's a good possibility.
John is writing what he sees and hears. Revelation 1:19 past, present and future.
 
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BABerean2

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I don't think 6:16 is referring to the event in 19:18. It mentions nothing about the the birds coming and eating the flesh of kings in 6:16.
It looks a lot more similar to Luke 23:30 than Revelation 19:16-18. Luke 23:31 also seems to indicate it happened in the past "when the tree is green". To me it's a likely possibility, that the 6th seal already happened and that the mighty men claiming it was the wrath of God were incorrect. It's very logical, and just enough to throw most anybody off, who doesn't consider this verse very closely. I'm not saying for sure, but it's a good possibility.

If a difference in details means it is a different event, Jesus rose from the dead more than one time, because the accounts in the different Gospels are not the same.



Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

These passages do not contain the exact same details, but they are speaking of the same event, based on the similarities.

If not, the similarities produce one of the greatest coincidences in the Bible.
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keras said in post 6287:

You still determinedly promote a Baathist army in Iraq, when that regime has long gone and in Syria, where Assad is simply a dictator.

Note that Baathism isn't history in the minds of most of the Sunni Arabs of Iraq, or in the minds of millions of the people of Syria (which is still Baathist). And the rest of the Arabs could easily be swayed to join the Baathists if they defeat Israel, and also distribute the Arab Gulf states' oil wealth to the Arab masses. For Baathism's true raison d'etre is to raise up all of the Arab people themselves into a mighty and prosperous Arab Empire, free of all Western (not to mention Shiite Iranian) tyranny.

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath") mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all of the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and -advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

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keras said in post 6305:

Another dreaded phrase is: Replacement Theology.

Indeed.

For even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).
 
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Riberra said in post 6303:

Why pre-tribbers deliberately ingore Jesus's words and prefers pretty stories invented by men ?That must be part of the deception /departure from the truth that will prevail in the last days Churches predicted by Paul.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).
 
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BABerean2 said in post 6310:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

These passages do not contain the exact same details, but they are speaking of the same event, based on the similarities.

Actually, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are 2 different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the 1st time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).
 
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keras

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Note that Baathism isn't history in the minds of most of the Sunni Arabs of Iraq, or in the minds of millions of the people of Syria (which is still Baathist). And the rest of the Arabs could easily be swayed to join the Baathists if they defeat Israel, and also distribute the Arab Gulf states' oil wealth to the Arab masses. For Baathism's true raison d'etre is to raise up all of the Arab people themselves into a mighty and prosperous Arab Empire, free of all Western (not to mention Shiite Iranian) tyranny.
The aim of Islam, be they whatever group you like to name, is to establish a worldwide Caliphate.
Not much of what you promote in #6311 is supported by Bible prophecy. It will be the Lord Himself, who will make the dramatic changes to the world and most overtly in the Middle East region. Ezekiel 30:2-8, Amos 1:1-15, Zephaniah 2:4-5

I certainly agree with you that there is no pre-trib rapture and also that the Sixth Seal event is years before the Return, as described in Matthew 24:30-31.
 
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Psalm3704

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88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.

Written by a pre-tribber

Whisenant's predictions were taken seriously in some parts of the evangelical Christian community. As the date approached, regular programming on the Christian Trinity Broadcast Network (TBN) was interrupted to provide special instructions on preparing for the rapture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant

LOL! Duped by a PreTribber. That's what you get for buying his book instead of reading directly from the bible. Now I see why you hate PreTribbers so much.


** some humor to conclude about this very profitable $$$$ pre-tribulation rapture business.
Hey Psalm3704 my friend:
I have "written" a "new book" about why a pre-trib rapture must happen very soon,the Title is Very SOON you will be raptured directly to Heaven (Catching title is'n it ?) i can sell you a pre-edition copy ....Psalm3704

Riberra, are you trying to be funny or attempting to write a book?

If you're gonna write a book, make sure to check for spelling errors and grammar. You misspelled catchy title.

If you want a really catchy title, call it "88 Reasons why I was duped!"









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Psalm3704

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Yes, I need you explain to me why you had to jump from 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 to John chapter 14 and ignored 1st Thessalonians chapter 5, to make your doctrine work.

First explain how 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 reveals the church is being kept on earth for the entire 7 year tribulation.










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Psalm3704

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Having never seen this movie before, I watched it, all of it.
For a minute I thought I was watching the sci-fi channel. Do you really believe this is the way it will be when Christ returns?

Nope. These videos are more how I see the rapture happening, the way Paul and John describes it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Revelation 6:12-17 are parallel events about the rapture.

Revelation 6:12-14 NKJV
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

In the first video, the earthquake happens, the stars fall to the earth and the sky receded, Revelation 6:12-14. Christ comes for the church, 1 Thess 5:2.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.




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In the second video, millions raptured. Cars without drivers, planes without pilots, etc. This is the "sudden destruction" in 1 Thess 5:3 when it suddenly comes upon the world immediately after the rapture at a time of peace and everyone will know millions suddenly vanished as the bible claimed will happen. They realized they're now they're in the tribulation and there's no escaping: be rapture away to safety as they missed the bus (left behind).

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.



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Guess what Paul meant when he said "peace and safety" in 1 Thess 5:3? I finally understood it a few months ago. The rapture does happen at a time of peace but that wasn't what he was alluding to.















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In the second video, millions raptured. Cars without drivers, planes without pilots, etc. Sudden destruction comes upon the world and everyone knows millions suddenly vanished as the bible claimed will happen. They realized they're now in the tribulation and there's no escape the tribulation: be rapture away.
Absolute fictional Hollywood rubbish.
The Bible claimed this would happen? Where is it said people will be removed from the earth to heaven?

The title of this thread is; Why do people believe in a rapture?
The answer is: they have been deceived and deluded into believing a lie promoted by the father of lies.
 
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Psalm3704

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Absolute fictional Hollywood rubbish.
The Bible claimed this would happen? Where is it said people will be removed from the earth to heaven?

The title of this thread is; Why do people believe in a rapture?
The answer is: they have been deceived and deluded into believing a lie promoted by the father of lies.

No no, this is what's absolutely rubbish. Prediction number 10. http://www.cogwriter.com/news/proph...ictions-that-will-be-proven-false-this-month/

PREDICTION: Bruce McKerras claims that the sixth seal of the Book of Revelation will be opened on December 2012. In a book/article that he posted online titled ALETHOS TELOS: The Truth About the End Times he states the following: “2012 December The great and terrible day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26. It is the Sixth seal. Worldwide devastation and the Middle East is completely cleared, Psalm 83, a small Jewish remnant survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die elsewhere, such as America: Isaiah 17:4-10, but most will survive…”
Falsely promoting a book that claims a worldwide apocalyptic event based on an error interpretation of one single verse found in the bible: Isaiah 30:26 is genuinely rubbish.













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Psalm3704

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Rightly divide: a catchphrase used by those who have had their beliefs challenged, in an attempt to gain the high ground and confuse the issue.

e. Rightly dividing the word of truth: This was to be a focus of Timothy's hard work. He was to work hard so he could rightly divide the word of God.

i. Timothy, as a faithful pastor, was to be rightly dividing God's Word. That is, he had to know what it said and didn't say, and how it was to be understood and how it was not to be understood. It wasn't enough for Timothy to know some Bible stories and verses and sprinkle them through his sermons as illustrations. His teaching was to be a "right dividing" of the Word of God, correctly teaching his congregation.

ii. "Swords are meant to cut and hack, and wound, and kill with, and the word of truth is for pricking men in the heart and killing their sins. The word of God is not committed to God's ministers to amuse men with its glitter, nor to charm them with the jewels in its hilt, but to conquer their souls for Jesus." (Spurgeon)

iii. Rightly dividing has several ideas associated with the ancient term.

·Rightly handle the Word of God, as one would rightly handle a sword.

·Plow straight with the Word of God, properly presenting the essential doctrines.

·Properly dissect and arrange the Word of God, as a priest would dissect and arrange and animal for sacrifice.

·Allot to each their portion, as someone distributing food at a table.​

f. Rightly dividing: This also means there is such a thing as wrongly dividing; not everyone cuts it straight. We must understand that Biblical truth is not just an issue left up to everyone's interpretation. There is a right way and a wrong way to understand the Bible, and a pastor especially must work hard to master the right interpretation.

i. For example, many people love to say when the Bible is quoted, "Well, that's just your interpretation." Their idea is, "You interpret the Bible your way, I interpret it my way, and another person interprets it their way. We can never really know what it means, so don't judge me with your Bible verse."

ii. When someone tells me, "That's just your interpretation," I think in response: "It's true that it is my interpretation, but it isn't just my interpretation, it is the correct interpretation, and we need to pay attention to what the Bible says correctly interpreted."

iii. This is an important point: The Bible does not mean just what anyone wants it to mean. There may be many people trying to twist the Scriptures to their own ends, but they are wrongly dividing the word of truth. We can't just pick the interpretation that seems most comfortable to us, and claim it as true - it must be rightly dividing the word of truth, and it must be consistent with what the Bible says in the specific passage and with the entire message of the Scriptures.

iv. For example, a correct interpretation of Matthew 7:1 (Judge not, that you be not judged) is not the idea of "You have no right to judge my behavior or any one else's behavior." If this were the case, then Jesus repeatedly broke His own commandment, because He often told people their behavior was wrong in the sight of God. The correct understanding of Matthew 7:1 is easily seen by reading Matthew 7:2: For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you. Jesus was saying "Don't judge anyone by a standard you are not willing to be judged by. God will hold you to the same standard you hold others to." This clearly does not forbid judging someone else's life, but it does prohibit doing it unfairly or hypocritically, or living with a judgmental attitude.

v. The point is clear: There is a right way and a wrong way to divide the Matthew 7:1, which is one verse in the word of truth. Every Christian, but pastors especially, mustwork hard to be rightly dividing the word of truth. Though perfection in understanding God's word is impossible, and should never be assumed, we should still work hard at it.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/guzik/2_timothy/2.htm

Another dreaded phrase is: Replacement Theology. This again is a red herring, a false idea that has two entities Israel and Church, whereas there has never been such a separation since Jesus came and offered salvation to everyone. The Jewish people are simply another of the many ethnic groups in the world, albeit one that God uses as a sign. They too, can become members of the Lord's people, the true Ekkelasia, by belief in God and accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, just as any other person can.

Yeah you would use replacement theology as an excuse to twist scriptures and promote your views over the bible.

As the whole rapture theory crumbles to dust, when the truth of only one people of God is known, you have to see some of the scriptures I quoted as errors; but in fact they are not wrong at all.

Anyone that doesn't believe in a rapture nor the existence of heaven where the righteous resides is already in error no matter how animated they think they are. These are solely your own doctrines. Carry on Keras!













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