[deleted]

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible speaks of salvation in the past, present, and future tense. We have been saved from the penalty of our sins, we are being saved from practicing sin, and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord. Our salvation from sin necessarily involves being freed from our bondage to sin.

Yes, but being freed from our bondage to sin doesn't mean that we will ever achieve sinlessness this side of eternity. While believers won't become sinless, they are commanded to sin less.

Another way to express the 3 tenses of salvation is this:

past: saved from the penalty of sin
present: saved from the power of sin
future: saved from the presence of sin

 

[ZacharyB]

The NT says several times ... Jesus is coming back for a
holy and blameless church without spot or blemish, etc.

If He is referring to people whom God considers to have these
attributes just because they have been given the Holy Spirit,
then He is playing games with us and misleading us.

No, it's all about having the correct heart attitude.
One needs to try very hard to be obedient to Jesus's commandments.
Jesus said that those who love Him would obey His commandments.
Many here prove they do NOT love Jesus because they refuse to obey Him.
A wrong heart attitude is deadly ... it results in eternal death.

 

[nobdysfool]

Just because one does or doesn't do something doesn't mean it isn't true. A smoker telling you smoking is bad and you shouldn't do it and can quite if you put your mind to it is still telling you true and good info even though they themselves smoke.

Irrelevant. We are NOT talking about smoking.

I am not yet saved. So I am not sinless yet. But I do not trust in a false hope and just wallow in my filthy rags in some false assurance. I realize I must truly fully repent to be righteous and saved, I must depart from all iniquity.

And therein lies your major problem. You cannot make yourself righteous. Only Jesus can do that. So you have admitted that you aren't saved. By what right do you think to teach any of us, who are confessing and professing Christians, who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and are saved, by Grace through Faith, and that not of ourselves, but as the gift of, God and not of works. Salvation produces works, but works will NEVER produce salvation. You are deceived, pure and simple. You have no authority to teach Christian doctrine. You're not in a position where you can do so. You must be born again.

There are people out there who do not sin against their knowledge of the truth, though they be few.

Name even one.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, but being freed from our bondage to sin doesn't mean that we will ever achieve sinlessness this side of eternity. While believers won't become sinless, they are commanded to sin less.

Another way to express the 3 tenses of salvation is this:

past: saved from the penalty of sin
present: saved from the power of sin
future: saved from the presence of sin

Indeed, our sanctification involves practicing righteousness more and sinning less as we are made to be more like Christ in his sinless obedience to the law. When God completes the good work He began in us on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be sinless. However, there is the issue of what happens when a believer turns their back on God and chooses to practice sin instead of righteousness.

 

[nobdysfool]

Indeed, our sanctification involves practicing righteousness more and sinning less as we are made to be more like Christ in his sinless obedience to the law. When God completes the good work He began in us on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be sinless. However, there is the issue of what happens when a believer turns their back on God and chooses to practice sin instead of righteousness.

In reality, isn't that God's problem?

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Soyeong]

Irrelevant. We are NOT talking about smoking.

The purpose of an analogy is say that a characteristic of one thing is like a characteristic of something else that is familiar in order to help you understand it. In this case, True Science was saying that the characteristic of a smoker who can nevertheless speak truthfully that smoking is bad is like someone who sins who can nevertheless speak truthfully that sinning is bad in order to help you understand that asking if he sins is irrelevant. The fact that the subject is not about smoking is also irrelevant.

And therein lies your major problem. You cannot make yourself righteous. Only Jesus can do that. So you have admitted that you aren't saved. By what right do you think to teach any of us, who are confessing and professing Christians, who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and are saved, by Grace through Faith, and that not of ourselves, but as the gift of, God and not of works. Salvation produces works, but works will NEVER produce salvation. You are deceived, pure and simple. You have no authority to teach Christian doctrine. You're not in a position where you can do so. You must be born again.

He is saved or justified in the past tense, is being saved or departing from iniquity in the present tense, and has not yet been saved in the future tense. Again whether or not he is a confessing Christian is irrelevant to whether what he is saying is true. He was not saying that works produce salvation from the penalty of sin, but that salvation from sin necessarily involves departing from sin.

 

[nobdysfool]

The purpose of an analogy is say that a characteristic of one thing is like a characteristic of something else that is familiar in order to help you understand it. In this case, True Science was saying that the characteristic of a smoker who can nevertheless speak truthfully that smoking is bad is like someone who sins who can nevertheless speak truthfully that sinning is bad in order to help you understand that asking if he sins is irrelevant. The fact that the subject is not about smoking is also irrelevant.

The very fact that an analogy is used is a subtle method of saying "you're too stupid to understand this". His postings have shown that attitude toward us for a long time. I am just redirecting the conversation back to the topic.

He is saved or justified in the past tense, is being saved or departing from iniquity in the present tense, and has not yet been saved in the future tense. Again whether or not he is a confessing Christian is irrelevant to whether what he is saying is true.

Sorry, but he clearly stated that he is not saved yet, so there is no past salvation for him, and no current salvation for him. He clearly believes that he must work and work in order to be counted "worthy" of salvation. That is a fool's mission.

He was not saying that works produce salvation from the penalty of sin, but that salvation from sin necessarily involves departing from sin.

He has said nearly as much in the past. And that is the logical conclusion of the theology of the anti-OSAS crowd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Indeed, our sanctification involves practicing righteousness more and sinning less as we are made to be more like Christ in his sinless obedience to the law. When God completes the good work He began in us on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be sinless. However, there is the issue of what happens when a believer turns their back on God and chooses to practice sin instead of righteousness.

Yes, there is that issue. But the solution is not that one will lose their salvation, but that the one who rebels will be disciplined, which can be very intense, and will lose reward in eternity.

 

[brotherjerry]

What I truly love about reading these debates it that the proponents of eternal security pull out verse after verse that say quite clearly things like "believe and you will have eternal life", I mean there is no argument in what the verses says. But the proponents of conditional security do not put up near as many verses and none of the verses they use are as clear as the others.

And then when you explain and show them Biblicly what the verses they refer to actually reflect and support it with other verses...you know interpret scripture with scripture...When there is no verse that clearly says eternal life is lost once it is given, you cannot infer that it can. If there is no verse that clearly says a saved person becomes lost, then you cannot assume it happens.

 

[sdowney717]

What I truly love about reading these debates it that the proponents of eternal security pull out verse after verse that say quite clearly things like "believe and you will have eternal life", I mean there is no argument in what the verses says. But the proponents of conditional security do not put up near as many verses and none of the verses they use are as clear as the others.

And then when you explain and show them Biblicly what the verses they refer to actually reflect and support it with other verses...you know interpret scripture with scripture...When there is no verse that clearly says eternal life is lost once it is given, you cannot infer that it can. If there is no verse that clearly says a saved person becomes lost, then you cannot assume it happens.

Belief is that great dividing line between being saved and unsaved.
Those that do not believe are not saved, and those that do are saved.
Those that have an evil heart of unbelief are not saved, as they are apostate in departing from the living God.
We are proven in Christ if we persevere all the way to the end in belief. Those who depart in unbelief , John says were never of us, they are in reality antichrists. Jesus calls such weeds among the wheat, planted by the enemy Satan in his teaching on the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13.

Heb 3
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”


16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

And in Jude the apostle says about apostates this

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Apostates Depraved and Doomed
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Apostates Predicted
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Maintain Your Life with God
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Glory to God
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

 

[sdowney717]

The seed of the serpent versus the seed of the Son of Man. Our being sons of the kingdom means Christ must have sown us as the good seed, else we are the tares among the wheat sown by Satan in God's field the world.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”


The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

That the seeds of the serpent exist is proven also in Gen 3 where God pronounces His judgement at the beginning of all things in Genesis before any of this has taken place.
Genesis 3

13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This is the Word of the Lord. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[ZacharyB]

Sinners are dead to God, dead. Romans 8 says if "we" (true saved believers according to the context) live after the flesh (sin) we will die, not just physically either.

I suggest that you qualify your statements about sin and sinning ...
by clarifying the difference between:
-- believers who sin and then repent of it
(this process gradually, or otherwise, gets rid of the sin from their lives)
-- believers who habitually sin with no repentance
(I use the term "habitually unrepentant", and it's not copyrighted)

 

[ZacharyB]

Please cite and quote the verses that contain the word "eternal" in them
(re: Romans 6:1-23). Just for accuracy.

I'ze bin down this rabbit hole before about this gaining of some kind of "death".
Okay, you win ... Paul was sayin' that Jesus will kill them, if they continue to sin.
This way you get to have your Physical death, and ignore the reality of Eternal death!

And there are many other "death"s, which are NOT qualified with the P or the E.
Thou gets to choose the P, while I get to choose the E.
Hope yer happy now ... we aim to please, ya know.

P.S. about the U/L red, you've heard of killin' 2 birds with 1 stone?
The red is to point out your folly, and to provide the troops with some comic relief.

 

[ZacharyB]

In reality, isn't that God's problem?

Nope ... it's another one of your problems!
It may (and can) be solved by getting with God's program!

 

[ZacharyB]

... salvation from sin necessarily involves departing from sin.

The entire Bible is about the above!
The Word (Jesus) came as The Ultimate Sacrificial Lamb to satisfy God about our past sins.
The new nature was given to believers to make them ABLE to not sin in the future.
The Holy Spirit was given to lead, guide, and help believers ... to achieve God's will.
Ergo, believers have no excuse if they fail to do God's will.

Next, we get someone saying: "God's will is for us to merely believe!"
After all, that's what forums are for ... To give everyone a good laugh.

This is not for laughing:
The Lord will do everything in His power to help true believers be overcomers!
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev 3:21-22)

But, the choice is theirs ... to co-operate with Him, or not.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[ZacharyB]

But the proponents of conditional security do not put up near as many verses (as for OSAS) and none of the verses they use are as clear as the others.

Believe me, all of these verses (pro and con) can very easily be reconciled.
But, you are totally blind to this reality.
Tomorrow, I'll post a thread about it.

However, you'll need to have an open mind, if that's remotely possible.
E.G. "the doctrines of men" in Bible commentaries are NOT God's word.
E.G. a Greek word can have as many as forty (40) different meanings,
depending upon the context.

I trust the Spirit's revelations over the "revelations" of men.
Is that OK?

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[brotherjerry]

Believe me, all of these verses (pro and con) can very easily be reconciled.
But, you are totally blind to this reality.
Tomorrow, I'll post a thread about it.

However, you'll need to have an open mind, if that's remotely possible.
E.G. "the doctrines of men" in Bible commentaries are NOT God's word.
E.G. a Greek word can have as many as forty (40) different meanings,
depending upon the context.

I trust the Spirit's revelations over the "revelations" of men.
Is that OK?

Zach...really if you are not willing to discuss those verses with an open mind as well, then don't bother. The experience of the past in discussing this with you is that you post verses that are not clear in what they say. You don't attempt to reconcile your more complex verses with the simple verses of the Bible. You fall back on "your eyes are not open" sort of arguments and then you claim those that don't agree with you are agents of Satan or some other derogatory statement. You even started that in your post above "But, you are totally blind to this reality"

 

[nobdysfool]

Nope ... it's another one of your problems!
It may (and can) be solved by getting with God's program!

So, you say that if a Believer seems to fall away, that's my problem? i cannot save him, I never could. I can pray for him, and try to talk to him about it, but ultimately it is God who will bring him back. You clearly do not understand what I'm saying. And I know. I've been there, and back.

"Getting with God's program". Don't you really mean "getting with ZacharyB's convoluted and inaccurate view of God's program"? That would be a much more truthful statement...

You see, I don't have a problem with God's program, but I definitely do with you interpretation of it.