why do jews reject jesus?

[smaneck]

I gave you no link. I am responding to the general tone of this thread where some people seem to be unwilling to accept that Jews might have a different opinion about what happened and have reason to see the New Testament's account to be either wrong or a fabrication.

I think he meant the link I sent giving Josephus and Philo of Alexandria's description of Pilate.

 

[Zstar]

Don't be angry because disagreement. You have faith that Jesus is the messiah. Loamme does not. If you want to get your point across you have to respect others beliefs even if they are very much different. If it were not for the tribe of Judah there would not have been a messiah. They are the chosen people to not only bring us the record of the Jews and none of the prophecies that could bring us to understand the messiah would exist. I see them as the parent and we are the children. Without the parent the children would not exist.

Angry ... LOL ...

Disagreement ... everyone on the Planet is important

 

[fatboys]

I gave you no link. I am responding to the general tone of this thread where some people seem to be unwilling to accept that Jews might have a different opinion about what happened and have reason to see the New Testament's account to be either wrong or a fabrication.

If he wasn't the messiah what difference does it make? If he was the messiah then I can see why it would make a difference. But if he was not there were plenty of innocent people put to death by the Jews and the Romans.

 

[LoAmmi]

If he wasn't the messiah what difference does it make? If he was the messiah then I can see why it would make a difference. But if he was not there were plenty of innocent people put to death by the Jews and the Romans.

The road into Jerusalem was said to be lined with the crucified corpses of Jews. Which innocent people did the Jews put to death?

That's not to say the courts always made the right decision, as we today fall victim to bad evidence, but you make it sound like we just killed people all the time with no cause.

 

[fatboys]

The road into Jerusalem was said to be lined with the crucified corpses of Jews. Which innocent people did the Jews put to death?

That's not to say the courts always made the right decision, as we today fall victim to bad evidence, but you make it sound like we just killed people all the time with no cause.

My point exactly. Power make men do evil things. There is a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants which says "we have learned through sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men as soon as they gain a little authoriy as they suppose they begin to exercise unrighteous dominion".

 

[LoAmmi]

My point exactly. Power make men do evil things. There is a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants which says "we have learned through sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men as soon as they gain a little authoriy as they suppose they begin to exercise unrighteous dominion".

We're not talking about evil things here. I'm talking about a court that is supposed to rule on the law convicting the wrong party. Maybe witnesses lied, maybe they didn't believe the person accused. For whatever reason a guilty verdict would be handed down.

That being said, the same men that are so "evil" also said that if one man were executed by a court in one hundred years, it should be considered a bloody court.

 

[Goatee]

Not suggesting he did have anyone hidden in the crowd. As for whether Pilate wanted Jesus dead, we don't really know because our only sources are those of the Gospel writers who clearly wish to blame the Jews and not the Romans. What we do know is that Jesus was convicted and executed for treason, not blasphemy. The Romans could care less about what the Jews considered blasphemy. And they were clearly able to put people to death on their own. Note the numerous attempts at stoning and the fact that Stephen gets stoned to death only a few months later.

He was executed by the Romans only because of the Jews! Pilate found nothing wrong with Jesus. It was the Jews that shouted for Jesus to be crucified! He committed no treason. How could he? They wanted him dead!

 

[danny ski]

The very fact that we're even having this conversation is an undeniable proof that Jesus was not a messiah. No prophet in the Tanakh talks about second coming of the Messiah. Once he shows up, no prophet says there will be any doubt. There's no messianic age, no new covenant, no world peace, no temple, no end to diaspora. There's no messiah. Pretty simple, really.

 

[Job8]

The very fact that we're even having this conversation is an undeniable proof that Jesus was not a messiah. No prophet in the Tanakh talks about second coming of the Messiah. Once he shows up, no prophet says there will be any doubt. There's no messianic age, no new covenant, no world peace, no temple, no end to diaspora. There's no messiah. Pretty simple, really.

Simple or simplistic?

I could show you many Scriptures in the Prophets which speak of both the first and the second coming. But for the OT prophets, those visions were not clearly demarcated, and the Bible is not a textbook either. Furthermore, the ultimate import of some of those prophecies was not even clear to the prophets themselves. They simple spoke or wrote as God gave them words -- "moved by the Holy Spirit" means simply borne along by God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Job8]

Not to mention he was recalled to Rome for his brutality toward the Samaritans.

None of that is relevant. There is no need to go off on rabbit trails. The fact is that the Gospel record is a dispassionate, objective, factual and historical record. Above all it is Scripture, with the same level of reliability and accuracy as the Tanakh. And for someone to dodge Scripture as being the Word of God because Jesus is also called the Word of God is merely childish.

People are willing to believe historians such as Herodotus or Josephus, but they find every excuse in the book to reject the Gospels. Which means that ultimately it is a SPIRITUAL ISSUE. To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ means to radically change your views and your life -- to repent and be converted. Saul the Pharisee became Paul the apostle because he had a radical confrontation with Jesus of Nazareth. His life changed totally and absolutely. Read and study the Acts of The Apostles if you want facts.

 

[danny ski]

Simple or simplistic?

I could show you many Scriptures in the Prophets which speak of both the first and the second coming. But for the OT prophets, those visions were not clearly demarcated, and the Bible is not a textbook either. Furthermore, the ultimate import of some of those prophecies was not even clear to the prophets themselves. They simple spoke or wrote as God gave them words -- "moved by the Holy Spirit" means simply borne along by God the Holy Spirit.

Show us. I contend that even his closest followers did not believe he was a messiah.

 

[Goatee]

Show us. I contend that even his closest followers did not believe he was a messiah.

The coming of Jesus was widely prophesied in the OT! Many many things are linked between the OT and the NT. All the prophets in the OT were killed. Like Jesus said, a Prophet is not welcome in his own city!

What the Jews wanted was a warrior king. They wanted a man that was going to kill all their enemies and because Jesus was a man of peace they rejected him. Simples. With Jesus came a new Covenant.

 

[LoAmmi]

None of that is relevant. There is no need to go off on rabbit trails. The fact is that the Gospel record is a dispassionate, objective, factual and historical record. Above all it is Scripture, with the same level of reliability and accuracy as the Tanakh. And for someone to dodge Scripture as being the Word of God because Jesus is also called the Word of God is merely childish.

So, because someone claims something is scripture, I must put it at the level of the Tanakh or I'm being childish. Alrighty then. The Quran and the Book of Mormon are considered scripture by Muslims and Mormons respectively. How do you incorporate those texts into your faith since ignoring scripture is childish?

 

[LoAmmi]

The coming of Jesus was widely prophesied in the OT! Many many things are linked between the OT and the NT. All the prophets in the OT were killed. Like Jesus said, a Prophet is not welcome in his own city!

What the Jews wanted was a warrior king. They wanted a man that was going to kill all their enemies and because Jesus was a man of peace they rejected him. Simples. With Jesus came a new Covenant.

I bet you if you name ten of these links, at least half of them won't be prophecy and the rest will be taken out of context and mean something different than is being presented. The best thing you've got is Isaiah 53 and I say that Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel multiple times in the text and identifies the servant as the Messiah exactly zero times. Everything else is, in my opinion, smoke and mirrors.

We were looking for someone who was going to be a warrior that re-established the Kingdom of Israel because that's what the Prophets said was going to happen. You are right, we weren't looking for something the Prophets didn't tell us about. I'm not going to feel bad for reading the Prophets, looking at Jesus, and going "this ain't the guy".

 

[Goatee]

I bet you if you name ten of these links, at least half of them won't be prophecy and the rest will be taken out of context and mean something different than is being presented. The best thing you've got is Isaiah 53 and I say that Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel multiple times in the text and identifies the servant as the Messiah exactly zero times. Everything else is, in my opinion, smoke and mirrors.

We were looking for someone who was going to be a warrior that re-established the Kingdom of Israel because that's what the Prophets said was going to happen. You are right, we weren't looking for something the Prophets didn't tell us about. I'm not going to feel bad for reading the Prophets, looking at Jesus, and going "this ain't the guy".

You have your beliefs i have mine. Your forefathers rejected Jesus and so are you now.

 

[LoAmmi]

You have your beliefs i have mine. Your forefathers rejected Jesus and so are you now.

My forefathers never saw a Messiah come and one hasn't come since.

 

[LoAmmi]

How about we just be honest here? I could, and have before with others, spend a lot of my time going though messianic prophecies, showing how they are clearly and obviously not fulfilled, show exactly what the expectation is according to the Prophets and all that but none of that would really matter. It never has to any Christian I've encountered. I think it's best expressed as something one of them told me:

Even if he was sent back in time to when Jesus was alive, saw Jesus killed, and saw that he didn't rise from the grave at all, he would still believe in Jesus. So there you go. No discussion is even possible when people cling to beliefs like that. None at all.

 

[Goatee]

How about we just be honest here? I could, and have before with others, spend a lot of my time going though messianic prophecies, showing how they are clearly and obviously not fulfilled, show exactly what the expectation is according to the Prophets and all that but none of that would really matter. It never has to any Christian I've encountered. I think it's best expressed as something one of them told me:

Even if he was sent back in time to when Jesus was alive, saw Jesus killed, and saw that he didn't rise from the grave at all, he would still believe in Jesus. So there you go. No discussion is even possible when people cling to beliefs like that. None at all.

But, you 'cling' to your beliefs too!

 

[LoAmmi]

But, you 'cling' to your beliefs too!

I've been more than willing to walk though the links with Christians and point out where I see flaws. You know what almost always happens? "YOU'RE JUST BLIND" in the end. I have a bias toward my beliefs, yes, but I will go though the texts with Christians.

 

[Goatee]

Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

.” Psalm 22:16-18: “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”