If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfeclty?

[Steeno7]

Awesome, thank you. Great scriptures.

1 John 1:8 is talking about sin.

IS breaking God's laws the ONLY way to sin?

I say this because Paul said he kept the law blamelessly, yet he also said he was a chief sinner. (Philippians 3:6, 1 Timothy 1:15)

This is what made me realize breaking the law must NOT be the only way to sin.

I went searching and found out what the Bible says SIN IS:

1. LAW BREAKING 1 John 3:4, 1 John 5:17. Breaking any commandment God gives.

2. REBELLING AGAINST GOD Deuteronomy 9:7, Joshua 1:8, Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:15, Ezekiel 20:8. Rebellion starts in the heart and may or may not act out, but God calls it sin from the first day it's discovered in the heart. Ezekiel 28:15

3. TURNING AWAY FROM GOD, FORSAKING GOD Hebrews 12:25, 2 Chronicles 12:5, 2 Chronicles 15:2, 2 Chronicles 24:24, 2 Chronicles 28:6, Jeremiah 2:13, Jeremiah 2:19, Jeremiah 17:13.

4. MISSING THE MARK Proverbs 10:5, Proverbs 24:9, James 4:17 This could be something as simple as talking too much, foolishness, not doing some good thing that you know you could do.

5. VIOLATING FAITH, ACTING WITHOUT FAITH Romans 14:23. God says acting without faith, or against faith is a sin. Why is that? I'm looking for the answer. Does anyone have the answer? Could it be because FAITH IS: "FAITH (a conviction that God exists and is the Creator and Ruler of all things, the Provider and Bestower of eternal salvation through Christ, and a leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness)." - Hebrews 13:7 AMP

Don't you think this is very interesting?

Don't you think this explains how Paul could say before he met Jesus he kept the law blamelessly AND could also say he was a chief sinner?

Isn't scripture a treasure trove of amazing wisdom, grace, and truth from God?

What are your thoughts on these various "sin" scriptures?

Paul never said he kept the Law blamelessly.

 

[Truthfrees]

You want verses that show you can't keep the law perfectly here's two.
1 john chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point their guilty of breaking all of it.
So we're all guilty of every sin whether we've done them or not.
But I don't think I can help you, I think your blinded by the darkness as you've posted, I'm not saying that mean though, I just don't think I can help you.

James 2:10 is another great scripture.

I totally agree with this scripture. I totally agree with any scripture as we all do. It's our interpretations of scripture we disagree with.

If someone breaks 1 law he's broken them all.

So if someone is leaning on his good law keeping to be saved, he's going to be disappointed the first time he breaks one of God's laws.

Now James 2:10 doesn't say everyone will be a law breaker. it just says the minute you've broken 1, you break them all, and you can no longer claim you kept the law blamelessly, as Paul did.

AND 1 John 1:8 says EVERYONE has sinned (except Jesus of course), but it doesn't say everyone is a lawbreaker. IOW, there's other ways to sin, not just lawbreaking (lawlessness).

 

[Truthfrees]

Paul never said he kept the Law blamelessly.

Paul said this:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

 

[Steeno7]

Paul said this:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

Exactly.

 

[Truthfrees]

I would say that the commandment is older than Leviticus...much older.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Cain knew.

Great point. I agree with you.

 

[Job8]

Exactly because you can't keep it perfectly, and yet it still demands perfection.

The Law was designed to bring us to despair of ever keeping it perfectly, thereby bringing us the Cross and to Christ, who not only kept it perfectly, but took the curse of the Law upon Himself.

It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a person can obey the Law of Christ, after he is a new creature in Christ. And even then, not perfectly. Hence God gives the sinner imputed righteousness, which is the righteousness of God Himself (2 Cor 5:21).

 

[Job8]

Paul never said he kept the Law blamelessly.

Actually he did. Check the Bible reference.

 

[Steeno7]

Actually he did. Check the Bible reference.

Actually he didn't.

 

[Job8]

Actually he didn't.

Did you check the reference provided?

 

[Steeno7]

Did you check the reference provided?

Did you?

 

[Truthfrees]

Paul said this:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

Exactly.

Can you clarify why you say this?

I'm working on a post to I break it down and clarify what I see, but I might not get it finished to post today.

All I can say quickly without providing several scriptures is:

Righteousness IN the law, is a righteous lifestyle described in the law, or accomplished by following the law. IOW, following God's laws will cause a person to live a righteous lifestyle.

Righteousness BY the law is impossible. That's the same as saying you're saved by keeping the law.

Keeping the law blamelessly is a sign that someone loves God enough to do whatever he says. Some people can do this. Some people have problems doing this.

That's why God saves us all by grace through faith.

God helps those who fail. He allows them to enter covenant with HIM as a gift by faith. He then helps them overcome their obstacles to living a righteous lifestyle.

God won't be beholden to anyone, so those that keep the law blamelessly can't ride into salvation on their own laurels. They have to humble themselves and enter God's salvation by grace through faith too. This is why Paul said he considers all his accomplishments, including living the law blamelessly, as garbage compared to knowing Christ.

This is how we're all equal in God's eyes.

Encouraging each other to live a righteous lifestyle (by following all God's laws) in NO WAY detracts from the grace of God, or salvation by grace through faith, as long as we all know we can't be in right standing with God by our righteous lifestyle. Salvation has always been a gift.

 

[Steeno7]

Can you clarify why say this?

I'm working on a post to I break it down and clarify what I see, but I might not get it finished to post today.

I say it because nowhere does Paul make the claim that he kept the Law perfectly, including the passage you quoted.

 

[Steeno7]

Can you clarify why you say this?

I'm working on a post to I break it down and clarify what I see, but I might not get it finished to post today.

All I can say quickly without providing several scriptures is:

Righteousness IN the law, is a righteous lifestyle described in the law, or accomplished by following the law. IOW, following God's laws will cause a person to live a righteous lifestyle.

Righteousness BY the law is impossible. That's the same as saying you're saved by keeping the law.

Keeping the law blamelessly is a sign that someone loves God enough to do whatever he says. Some people can do this. Some people have problems doing this.

That's why God saves us all by grace through faith.

God helps those who fail. He allows them to enter covenant with HIM as a gift by faith. He then helps them overcome their obstacles to living a righteous lifestyle.

God won't be beholden to anyone, so those that keep the law blamelessly can't ride into salvation on their own laurels. They have to humble themselves and enter God's salvation by grace through faith too. This is why Paul said he considers all his accomplishments, including living the law blamelessly, as garbage compared to knowing Christ.

This is how we're all equal in God's eyes.

Nope.

 

[Hank77]

Actually he didn't.

Yes, he did.
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul learned the same thing that Job learned. God said that Job was upright, righteous, because he did everything that God commanded him to do. That is why Job stood firm in his innocence. But Job had to learn that it was not by his own righteous doings that he would see his Redeemer, but by the grace of God whom he had put his faith in.
God said to Job, when you can do all the things I can do, then I will admit to you, that your own right hand [righteous works] can save you.
However, neither Job or Paul claimed to be sinless, only that they obeyed the commandments and were blameless under the laws that God had given to them.
imo....
God did not give a law, any commandments, that man was incapable of doing, the problem was man being weak in the flesh, in most cases, did not do it. And in other cases even when they did do it, they were arrogant in thinking that by doing it they would be saved. When in reality it was only by God's grace through faith that they would/could be saved.
How did Jesus do the Law perfectly? He obeyed every jot and tittle that pertained to Him, giving all the glory to His Father in heaven. We know that He was sinless, so never would have been required to make atonement for sin, as Job and Paul would have been required to do.

 

[Steeno7]

Yes, he did.
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul learned the same thing that Job learned. God said that Job was upright, righteous, because he did everything that God commanded him to do. That is why Job stood firm in his innocence. But Job had to learn that it was not by his own righteous doings that he would see his Redeemer, but by the grace of God whom he had put his faith in.
God said to Job, when you can do all the things I can do, then I will admit to you, that your own right hand [righteous works] can save you.
However, neither Job or Paul claimed to be sinless, only that they obeyed the commandments and were blameless under the laws that God had given to them.
imo....
God did not give a law, any commandments, that man was incapable of doing, the problem was man being weak in the flesh, in most cases, did not do it. And in other cases even when they did do it, they were arrogant in thinking that by doing it they would be saved. When in reality it was only by God's grace through faith that they would/could be saved.
How did Jesus do the Law perfectly? He obeyed every jot and tittle that pertained to Him, giving all the glory to His Father in heaven. We know that He was sinless, so never would have been required to make atonement for sin, as Job and Paul would have been required to do.

No, he didn't.

 

[Wordkeeper]

[QE="Truthfrees, post: 68463085, member: [QUOTE="Truthfrees, post: 68463085, member: 376902"] How about we start here at the OP's primary question: "If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfectly?"

PREAMBLE
This matches a few other questions. If we start here we can deal with several points 1 at a time, and end up discussing all the questions you each brought up.

IOW, I can prove EVERYTHING I've said with scripture, but right now we seem to be hopscotching all over the place in a shallow banter rather than a true deep scripture study.

Now, if we get into a true deep scripture discussion, you may be able to prove me wrong, which will cause me to change my mind. Nothing wrong with that. If I'm wrong, I'd like to correct my theology and get it right. It's also possible that I'll be able to prove you wrong.

I'm in no hurry to end this discussion. God's words are powerful. His laws are awesome, wise, profitable, good for training and godliness. A proper and deep understanding is important to us all.


MAY WE START HERE?
Show me a scripture that says you CAN'T keep the law perfectly?

Scripture says we DON'T keep the law because we don't want to. We want to do something different than what the law says. No surprise there, that's called the flesh, living by the flesh, etc.

But where's a scripture that says it's IMPOSSIBLE for everyone or anyone to keep the law blamelessly as Paul says he did before he met Jesus.

CF has an automatic Bible link to the ASV Bible, so if you at least write the address out properly, the whole scripture appears when you move the cursor over it.

MY EXPERIENCE
I know people who ARE keeping God's laws just as well as Paul said he was. I am learning to do the same as they are. All that stands in my way is LEARNING what God SAYS He wants us to do with food, Sabbath, morality, business, hygiene, sickness, crime, authorities, relationships, money, prayer, worship, etc, etc, etc:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

So please show me a scripture that says what Paul claims to have done is AGAINST scripture.



PLAY NICE
Also, can we keep the discussion to the topic, not me. We're family, so please say nice things about me.

WEEKDAY DISCUSSION
I don't post on the weekends (late Friday afternoon-Sunday afternoon) because I choose to observe Shabbat like Jesus, Paul, and the other NT believers did. (Exodus 20:8, Deuteronomy 5:12, Matthew 24:20, Mark 1:21, Mark 1:32, Mark 6:2, Luke 4:16, Luke 6:6, Luke 13:10, Acts of the Apostles 13:14, Acts of the Apostles 13:42-44, Acts of the Apostles 16:13, Acts of the Apostles 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 18:4). [/QUOTE]



The post posits that in order for a teaching to be valid it must be stated directly in the Bible. Non sequitur, does not necessarily follow.

Many scriptural teachings are arrived at by using syllogistic reasoning, indirect reasoning. Like the doctrine of the Trinity.

http://gospelway.com/bible/necessary_inference.php

Quote
Examples of the Use of Scriptural Reasoning

Consider some instances in which men of God reasoned to conclusions that necessarily follow Scripture, but are not directly stated there. In each case the students were expected to understand the reasoning, reach the same conclusion that the teacher reached, and then accept the conclusion as being the will of God.
Note that Jesus and other Bible teachers used "necessary inferences," exactly as we seek to use them. Note the use of words such as "reason," "therefore," "so then," "evidently," and other such expressions that show a conclusion is being reached.

Fulfilled Prophecy

Acts 17:1-4
Paul "reasoned from the Scriptures" to prove that Christ must die and rise again, and that Jesus is Christ. The "Scriptures" used here were the Old Testament (cf. Acts 28:23).
But what Old Testament passage directly states that Christ must rise from the dead (without reasoning to conclusions)? What passage directly stated that Jesus of Nazareth would be Christ?
Old Testament prophecy definitely shows that Jesus is the Christ, but this requires taking passages and "adding them up" to reason to the necessary conclusion that Jesus would rise from the dead and is the Christ.
Note that this was the method Paul "customarily" used to "persuade" people - Acts 17:2.
Acts 2:27-32,36
Peter quoted David's prophecy that "you will not leave my soul in Hades nor allow your Holy One to see corruption" (v27). He reasoned: (1) David said "my" soul, but he could not have meant himself since he did die (v29). "Therefore" (conclusion), the reference must have been to the Christ, David's descendant (v30). (2) And if he did not see corruption, then he must arise from the dead (v31).
Note that Paul and Peter expected people to reach the same inference they reached. They viewed the conclusion as "binding": they believed people who did not accept the conclusion would be wrong. In fact, their souls' salvation depended on it!
Arguing from fulfilled prophecy is worthless unless we draw necessary conclusions.

"] How abou

 

[Hank77]

No, he didn't.

Then what is your interpretation of Paul's words?

 

[Steeno7]

Then what is your interpretation of Paul's words?

Just as he said, that he was blameless as to the righteousness which is in the Law.

 

[Hank77]

Just as he said, that he was blameless as to the righteousness which is in the Law.

So what does that mean to you.

 

[Steeno7]

So what does that mean to you.

Better question is, what did it mean to Paul?