Anglicans stole our stuff!!!! ??????

gordonhooker

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The politics of Henry VIII and the blood bath the followed because of the beliefs held by the Monarchs of England did not change or in any way dilute the teachings of the Saints it only drove them underground. The closing and persecution of the religious orders in England were purely a grab for the land and property that was in the hands of the religious orders in England there was nothing religious about it at all it was purely political, and power grabs.

You may also be surprised to know that our Lutheran brothers and sisters also have religious orders including Franciscans.
 
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GoingByzantine

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I tried to post in this thread earlier today, when I was at work, but my cell service was poor.

Essentially what I was going to say, is that Anglicans did not steal anything, their traditional liturgy developed holistically from the Latin mass as it was at the time.
 
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GoingByzantine

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As for posters who are not of the Catholic faith, I respect your opinions, but please do not attack the OP. You may post here in fellowship, as I often do in your home forums, I also see no problem with you defending your faith groups in a respectful way.

It is however inappropriate to personally attack a young Catholic convert, who is asking questions about our church and our beliefs, in our home forum.
 
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WarriorAngel

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so I was recently talking to a Anglican friend and I realized they too have a mass structure similar to ours and some pray the rosary I started thinking do they even have a right to these things as there not in union with Rome some even believe in the transubstantiation of the eucruist as we do but they can have a valid eucruist can they ? Since there not united with us y should they get our stuff I know the history of the Anglican Church but if there not with us are they against us ?
The original - the Church of England was a diocese Church of Rome before King Henry martyred the Saints who remained faithful to the Pope - including his friend St Thomas More - so he could take over the Church and since that time - his own 'flavor' [ a mix or Protestantism obviously protesting the Pope] eventually led the Anglicans [they were called] to be not only illicit - but eventually invalid according to the Traditions.
Michelina [ a member of OBOB who passed away a few years ago - was a theologian] AND SHE explained it to me - but i dont have the message anymore to go into it further.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I understand some Catholics don't pray the rosary but our lady said the rosary would crush error and Hercy so all Anglicans or Protestants that pray it should eventually became catholic
If they prayed the Rosary our Lady gave ...but it seems they do not.
They use the idea of it.
You could pray for them using the Rosary. :hug:
 
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Theatreguy18

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I see you are not aware of things like that .

Why should you be surprised ?

There are also Eastern Catholics who are Carmelites - does that surprise you as well ?

Theatreguy - these are all excellent questions for you to ask the RCIA Team
No actually I can believe that there still Catholics (eastern rite )
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The politics of Henry VIII and the blood bath the followed because of the beliefs held by the Monarchs of England did not change or in any way dilute the teachings of the Saints it only drove them underground. The closing and persecution of the religious orders in England were purely a grab for the land and property that was in the hands of the religious orders in England there was nothing religious about it at all it was purely political, and power grabs.

You may also be surprised to know that our Lutheran brothers and sisters also have religious orders including Franciscans.

Yes we do. Some monasteries and convents as well; apart from one in the US (St. Augustine House), the ones in Europe existed pre reformation. Some Lutherans pray the Rosary; an earlier form that predates the Reformation also.

I tried to post in this thread earlier today, when I was at work, but my cell service was poor.

Essentially what I was going to say, is that Anglicans did not steal anything, their traditional liturgy developed holistically from the Latin mass as it was at the time.

The Lutheran Mass is a translation of the pre-Trent Mass.

We Confessional Lutherans accept that the Catholic Church holds that we do not have valid orders, and that our Mass is invalid. Obviously, we don't agree with the Catholic position on this, but we accept it. We do recognize that the Mass as celebrated in Catholicism is indeed valid and efficacious.
 
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GoingByzantine

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Yes we do. Some monasteries and convents as well; apart from one in the US (St. Augustine House), the ones in Europe existed pre reformation. Some Lutherans pray the Rosary; an earlier form that predates the Reformation also.



The Lutheran Mass is a translation of the pre-Trent Mass.

We Confessional Lutherans accept that the Catholic Church holds that we do not have valid orders, and that our Mass is invalid. Obviously, we don't agree with the Catholic position on this, but we accept it. We do recognize that the Mass as celebrated in Catholicism is indeed valid and efficacious.

When I was a boy, I went to a couple masses at a LCMS church. I remember being surprised with how similar it was to the ordinary form latin catholic mass, if anything it was more formal than I was used to. I can't remember why my parents took me there, but it is possible they were discerning Lutheranism. My sister also went to their preschool for a time.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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TheatreGuy - please be careful - he did NOT say that Anglicans have , in Rome's eye, valid Eucharist.

He is not allowed to debate in OBOB as I'm sure he knows but your very pointed comment about the validity of the Eucharist in the Anglican Church could be regarded by some as baiting.
If he took it as such , I for one, would not blame him for retaliating

I was a point I feel I had to make

A word of advice from one of CF's Administrators, and a person who has great respect for my Catholic brothers and sisters (Many members of this forum I consider friends); listen to and learn from Anhelyna and the others who have added words of instruction here; they are wise and always gives great advice.

Keep in mind also, that in order to be respected; one needs to be respectful. Your zeal for your faith is admirable and a blessing to you; make sure it's a blessing to others.

Pax Domini,

Mark
CF Admin
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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When I was a boy, I went to a couple masses at a LCMS church. I remember being surprised with how similar it was to the ordinary form latin catholic mass, if anything it was more formal than I was used to. I can't remember why my parents took me there, but it is possible they were discerning Lutheranism. My sister also went to their preschool for a time.

Might it have been the school affiliation and maybe an invite from one of the other parents? Things have changed little; I don't really need the book to participate when I attend weddings and funeral at our local Catholic Churches; and they have no trouble following along either. I hear Lutheran Hymns in the Catholic Church; we have "Catholic" hymns in our Hymnals. I've heard Bach and Shutz in Catholic Churches; our Choir sometimes sings in Latin.

It's a common heritage and tradition; for Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans. Some Eastern Lutherans use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom too. These great traditions have been a blessing to Christians for centuries; why stop now?:oldthumbsup::holy:
 
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GoingByzantine

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Might it have been the school affiliation and maybe an invite from one of the other parents? Things have changed little; I don't really need the book to participate when I attend weddings and funeral at our local Catholic Churches; and they have no trouble following along either. I hear Lutheran Hymns in the Catholic Church; we have "Catholic" hymns in our Hymnals. I've heard Bach and Shutz in Catholic Churches; our Choir sometimes sings in Latin.

It's a common heritage and tradition; for Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans. Some Eastern Lutherans use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom too. These great traditions have been a blessing to Christians for centuries; why stop now?:oldthumbsup::holy:

I can't say I disagree! During the troubles in Ukraine, I understand that the Catholic and Lutheran communities supported one another. I love how traditional churches can grow closer through the liturgy, through prayers, and through ecumenism. :)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I can't say I disagree! During the troubles in Ukraine, I understand that the Catholic and Lutheran communities supported one another. I love how traditional churches can grow closer through the liturgy, through prayers, and through ecumenism. :)
Christians acting like Christians; what a novel idea eh?^_^
 
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Theatreguy18

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I know what ur say
Yes we do. Some monasteries and convents as well; apart from one in the US (St. Augustine House), the ones in Europe existed pre reformation. Some Lutherans pray the Rosary; an earlier form that predates the Reformation also.



The Lutheran Mass is a translation of the pre-Trent Mass.

We Confessional Lutherans accept that the Catholic Church holds that we do not have valid orders, and that our Mass is invalid. Obviously, we don't agree with the Catholic position on this, but we accept it. We do recognize that the Mass as celebrated in Catholicism is indeed valid and efficacious.
just asking if ur already confessional why not come back home to Rome and be united in the Catholic Church
 
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Reader Antonius

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Distinctions here could be useful. :)

First of all, it is not correct to see any substantive connection between the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the Anglican service. The OF is a reform of the Tridentine Mass along traditional lines, and it restores the pre-medieval Mass (in many respects the Mass of St. Gregory the Great) while maintaining certain medieval additions that the Church deemed useful. There may be superficial resemblances between Holy Mass in the OF of the Roman Rite and Anglican services (often more in terms of the style of celebration than official texts), but these are not due to cross-pollination in any major way. This is a historically demonstrable fact. As one link in the second post in the thread discusses, worship service structures in early Anglicanism were major ruptures with Catholic liturgy; Lutheranism was no exception: "Lutheran public worship is based on the service-book which Luther published in 1523 and 1526. He retained the first part of the Mass, but abolished the Offertory, Canon, and all the forms of sacrifice" (Old Catholic Encyclopedia).

The "formula missae" and its derivatives that were composed by Martin Luther were not the Mass of the Holy Fathers, however many similarities there may have been. At most, they represent an imitation of the Mass of the Catechumens and a "communion" service. The drastic difference is seen especially in Luther's complete removal of the Roman Canon. Again, only recently has there been a major resurgence of "Catholicizing" the Protestant service books; mostly out of shared interest in Patristic liturgy.

Thus, while the Anglican and Lutheran services are based on the medieval Mass structures, they are significantly different enough to be seen as veritable breaks from the Roman liturgical tradition. Certain heretical beliefs undergirded the "reforms" that resulted in the Anglican and Lutheran service books, and these drastically altered the Apostolic tradition of Liturgy in the West. The Anglican and Lutheran services may have become more and more similar to the OF – but there is no hard evidence that it works the other way around. As one priest I knew once said: "smells and bells do not a Catholic liturgy make." No matter how similar the imitations that Anglican or Lutheran service books come to the Roman Mass (including wholesale adoption of Catholic liturgies), there will never be true equality without the restoration of full communion, the acceptance of Catholic Orthodoxy, and the reestablishment of Apostolic Succession in these Protestant communities. The closest a Protestant service can be to the Catholic liturgy is probably the Anglican Use; it's certainly the best example we have to look at.

All this is not, of course, to bash Anglicans or Lutherans; it is simply to note the significant distinctions between Sacred Liturgy in the Catholic Church and the worship services of the former. There is a lot that Anglicans, Lutherans, and Catholics (at least nowadays) share in beliefs about the Holy Eucharist...but that does not mean that the liturgies of the two former were organic developments from the Roman Rite or legitimate expressions of authentic Occidental liturgy. That is simply not the case.

Thirdly, the idea of non-Catholic religious Orders based on Catholic traditions (e.g. Franciscans, Dominicans, etc.) while interesting, simply cannot hold in practice. Holy Fathers, Sts. Dominic and Francis, were devoted sons of the Church and their true spiritual children are solely the recognized Orders of the Catholic communion. Furthermore, there is no substantive evidence that the majority of the modern Protestant communities imitating Catholic religious orders actually survived the Reformation in a continuous line. Indeed, most of the communities derive from "Catholicizing" movements like the Oxford Movement in England or the High Church movement in Lutheranism. Even those very few that did keep a continuous line (such as the Lutheran "Teutonic Knights") are invalidated by clear deviations from the vision of the Founders, the Rules, and the Constitutions of the parent religious institutes. It is really no different from the how the Spiritual Franciscans, the Minorites, and other renegade branch-offs of the approved religious Orders in the Middle-Ages operated. The aforementioned looked and talked like Franciscans, but only the Order of Friars Minor represented the true heritage of Holy Father, St. Francis.

Thus, while it is good to see that the spirituality of Catholic institutes of consecrated life are inspiring Protestant brothers and sisters, it would be a mistake for groups seeking to imitate the Rules and Constitutions of these Orders to believe themselves to be members of the Family of Religious in question.
 
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Reader Antonius

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As for posters who are not of the Catholic faith, I respect your opinions, but please do not attack the OP. You may post here in fellowship, as I often do in your home forums, I also see no problem with you defending your faith groups in a respectful way.

It is however inappropriate to personally attack a young Catholic convert, who is asking questions about our church and our beliefs, in our home forum.

Hear, hear!
 
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ebia

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Distinctions here could be useful. :)

First of all, it is not correct to see any substantive connection between the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and the Anglican service. The OF is a reform of the Tridentine Mass along traditional lines, and it restores the pre-medieval Mass (in many respects the Mass of St. Gregory the Great) while maintaining certain medieval additions that the Church deemed useful. There may be superficial resemblances between Holy Mass in the OF of the Roman Rite and Anglican services (often more in terms of the style of celebration than official texts), but these are not due to cross-pollination in any major way. This is a historically demonstrable fact. As one link in the second post in the thread discusses, worship service structures in early Anglicanism were major ruptures with Catholic liturgy; Lutheranism was no exception: "Lutheran public worship is based on the service-book which Luther published in 1523 and 1526. He retained the first part of the Mass, but abolished the Offertory, Canon, and all the forms of sacrifice (Old Catholic Encyclopedia).

The "formula missae" and its derivatives that were composed by Martin Luther were not the Mass of the Holy Fathers, however many similarities there may have been. At most, they represent an imitation of the Mass of the Catechumens and a "communion" service. The drastic difference is seen especially in Luther's complete removal of the Roman Canon. Again, only recently has there been a major resurgence of "Catholicizing" the Protestant service books; mostly out of shared interest in Patristic liturgy.

Thus, while the Anglican and Lutheran services are based on the medieval Mass structures, they are significantly different enough to be seen as veritable breaks from the Roman liturgical tradition. Certain heretical beliefs undergirded the "reforms" that resulted in the Anglican and Lutheran service books, and these drastically altered the Apostolic tradition of Liturgy in the West. The Anglican and Lutheran services may have become more and more similar to the OF – but there is no hard evidence that it works the other way around. As one priest I knew once said: "smells and bells do not a Catholic liturgy make." No matter how similar the imitations of Anglican or Lutheran service books come to the Roman Mass (including wholesale adoption of Catholic liturgies), there will never be true equality without the restoration of full communion, the acceptance of Catholic Orthodoxy, and the reestablishment of Apostolic Succession in these Protestant communities. The closest a Protestant service can be to the Catholic liturgy is probably the Anglican Use; it's certainly the best example we have to look at.

All this is not, of course, to bash Anglicans or Lutherans; it is simply to note the significant distinctions between Sacred Liturgy in the Catholic Church and the worship services of the former. There is a lot that Anglicans, Lutherans, and Catholics (at least nowadays) share in beliefs about the Holy Eucharist...but that does not mean that the liturgies of the two former were organic developments from the Roman Rite or legitimate expressions of authentic Occidental liturgy. That is simply not the case.
Obviously, many of us would not agree, but it would need a different forum to explore that properly.
 
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Reader Antonius

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Obviously, many of us would not agree, but it would need a different forum to explore that properly.

Indeed. :sigh: I should note in passing that I have edited the post you quoted.
 
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Theatreguy18

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As for posters who are not of the Catholic faith, I respect your opinions, but please do not attack the OP. You may post here in fellowship, as I often do in your home forums, I also see no problem with you defending your faith groups in a respectful way.

It is however inappropriate to personally attack a young Catholic convert, who is asking questions about our church and our beliefs, in our home forum.
Thank u God bless u
 
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Rhamiel

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But do they have a valid eucruist

Unfortunately, no. The vast majority do not have a valid Eucharist because they no longer have valid Holy Orders. There may be some Anglican bishops who (through really confusing historical things in the 19th century involving wandering Eastern bishops) have valid Holy Orders...but there's no way to really be sure. And these Bishops would probably only be found in Great Britain anyway, not anywhere else.

it is my understanding that the break is not only from the physical break in lines of succession
but also a break in leaving the ancient teachings of the Church and the denial of the Mass as a true sacrifice?
so they could have a cardinal ordain them, it would not matter because they are not trying to have the same thing as what the sacrament was made for
 
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Theatreguy18

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it is my understanding that the break is not only from the physical break in lines of succession
but also a break in leaving the ancient teachings of the Church and the denial of the Mass as a true sacrifice?
so they could have a cardinal ordain them, it would not matter because they are not trying to have the same thing as what the sacrament was made for
Lol
 
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