Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

'Once Saved Always Saved': Fact or Fiction?

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MikeEnders

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The question was:

Can a "saved" person continually indulge in any and all those
sins and remain saved?


The only appropriate answers are a "yes" or a "no."

And you "yes" or "no" answer is:

The answer is no because in so doing they show they are not born again. Both sides will disagree with me but who cares the Bible agrees with me and every time i bring this verse up both sides run away from it.

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 john 3:9

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
1 john 5:18

CLEAR.............AS..............DAY

but given the history of this thread the verses will continue to be avoided or someone will come along and think that their pontifications (complete with a whole lot of made up fake "ifs" and "buts") make the verse say something than what it says.
 
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LoveofTruth

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The question was:

Can a "saved" person continually indulge in any and all those
sins and remain saved?


The only appropriate answers are a "yes" or a "no."

And you "yes" or "no" answer is:



So you avoided answering the question with a "yes" or a "no."

If I understand you, you are saying that a person can intentionally and continually participate in the most heinous sins imaginable and, as long as he was "saved" at some earlier time, when he dies he goes straight to heaven.

Following that puerile illogic, we can expect someone who was a devout Christian in his youth, but who later "fell away", to be ushered directly into heaven when he died. That would include Adolf Hitler.

Brilliant, exegesis.


No, if they do they are "deceived" as Paul said in 1 Cor 6:9,10

how many are deceived by false teachings in this?
 
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MikeEnders

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Still no phrase "eternal life" in Romans 11:29

JLB

I'm going to surprise you and agree and give you thanks on that. How we handle the word of God is important. even though I hold to the perseverance of the saints Romans 11 is an AWFUL passage to use and those using it should go and read it. It is NOT about personal salvation. Its about the nation of Israel and Jews COLLECTIVELY missing out (for the time being) on Messiah. Using it out of context is not rightly diving God's word.
 
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MikeEnders

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You haven't realized Salvation because you only have the substance of the salvation you are hoping for...

Now, you have salvation "by faith", which is the hope of salvation.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR... the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

wrong the first time you said and still wrong. Christians are only hoping for the part of their salvation they get at the resurrection. They already have salvation of their souls not just hope
 
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SailorSam

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Scripture refutes this notion. Paul defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15-17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God and then stated in Rom 11:29 that God's gifts and calling are IRREVOCABLE. They CANNOT be returned, refunded, given away, etc.

Irrelevant to what Scripture SAYS about eternal life. btw, eternal life isn't some object, like money, or anything else. Eternal life means exactly what it SAYS; eternal. Lasts forever. And it's IN you, not in your pocket or ON you.

I believe this is heresy. Man CANNOT maintain anything. God gives eternal life to those who believe, and the aorist tense is used a number of times, which carries NO concept of continuing action, only point in time action.

It is God alone who maintains our security.

Please back up this notion with Scripture.

Freedom to reject does NOT equal loss of salvation. That is just an old wive's tale; fiction. Not taught in the Bible.

But glad you brought up Saul. In the only seance ever where someone actually did return from the dead was the prophet Samuel. And guess what Sam told the idiot Saul: “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

The highlighted phrase shows that both Saul and his sons would join Samuel the next day. So, where would that be? Some, who don't want to face the truth of this passage, would say only that Samuel was referring to the "fact of being dead", or "joining him in the grave". But how stupid is that? Samuel we all know was a legitimate prophet of God, and he was in Paradise. That is where Saul would be the next day.

Why would any saved believer who resides in Paradise refer only to the state of being "dead" when in fact only their body was dead but they were completely alive in Paradise. Did Samuel appear dead to either Saul or the medium? Of course not.

Yes, salvation, or the free gift of eternal life must be accepted. And when accepted, it is IRREVOCABLE. btw, there is no such thing as the 'sinner's prayer' for salvation. Paul never told the jailer to pray to be saved. He told him to BELIEVE and he would be saved.

All believers who pray are praying a sinner's prayer, because all believers are sinners.

This is a fallacy. No where in Scripture is this taught. I have no idea why people believe such stuff.

Scholars refer to this verse as a "litotes", which is a form of understatement: Rhetoric 1. understatement, especially that in which an affirmative is expressed by the negative of its contrary, as in “not bad at all.”.

1) gifts etc are irrevocable from God's perspective. People still have the freedom to walk away.
2) disagree with your assertion that the gift of eternal life is immutable.
3) I still say a contract requires two parties. are you saying that once a person is saved God takes complete control and allows that person no free choice or will? Jesus said 'He that endures to the end shall be saved'. Implication is that some people quit, and will not be saved.
4) King Saul openly rebelled against God to the point where he asks Samuel to 'pray to the Lord your God', i.e. He's not my God anymore. I can't believe God would take someone who so openly rejected Him, and allowed same in His Kingdom. Demas was a fellow laborer with Paul, yet he abandoned the ministry for his love of the things of this world. I can't believe we can all be Demas' and love the world after we get saved, and still expect God to allow us in heaven.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I'm going to surprise you and agree and give you thanks on that. How we handle the word of God is important. even though I hold to the perseverance of the saints Romans 11 is an AWFUL passage to use and those using it should go and read it. It is NOT about personal salvation. Its about the nation of Israel and Jews COLLECTIVELY missing out (for the time being) on Messiah. Using it out of context is not rightly diving God's word.
Every statement comes in a certain context.

In this case it is in a letter where Paul is addressing a situation concerning the Jew's election.

But - so what?

While talking about these things, God tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Find out what things are gifts and you will know what is irrevocable.

The scriptures tell us that salvation is a gift.

Therefore salvation is not revocable.

"Context" has nothing to do with it.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Completely False!

Here is what Romans 11:29 says.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

The context of what Paul is teaching here is the calling to those branches which were "broken off" from the Covenant Relationship, because of unbelief, still continue to be called to Salvation.


JLB
You keep saying this even though you have been shown to be wrong many times.

The "context" where Paul makes the bold statement that the gifts of God are irrevocable has nothing to do with whether the statement is true.

Salvation can be shown from many scriptures to be one of those gifts of God.

Therefore salvation is not revocable.

Put your thinking cap on.

Unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God. That's a fact told us by Jesus. The fact that the statement was made to a certain Jew at a certain time in context has nothing at all to do with the fact that men must be born again to see the Kingdom of God.

This isn't that difficult.

There are plenty of other places to go to show possible loss of salvation.

This particular scripture is for use from the other side.

Admit it and move on.
 
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Butch5

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If it were simply 'proof texts' which upheld OSAS than Luther and Calvin wouldn't have been able to make such elaborate theologies of the belief. They were extremely well versed in the Scriptures, in rank with any Catholic bishop.

OSAS is between the lines of Scripture, and laced in it's essence- they held, simply, that God does not make mistakes. If one goes in and out of salvation, than God is errant in His salvific merits to men.

Calvinists have have outright proclaimed that TULIP is the actual gospel of Christianity altogether, and it's not hard to see why- it's extremely well thought theology. They didn't receive such a grand notion through proof texting.

It may be a well thought out theology, but it's not what the Scriptures teach. As you said, it's between the lines'. Since one has to read between the lines to see it tells us that its not in the Scriptures. Luther and Calvin were both influenced by Gnosticism which they got from Augustine. When Augustine developed his "Perseverance of the Saints" it was rejected by the church. You said Luther and Calvin were well versed in the Scriptures, that doesn't mean they understood them.

Everyone who approaches the Scriptures does so with a world view. Luther and Calvin had a world view. Their world view was Catholic. While they rejected some of the errors of the Catholic church, they retained some also. In addition to the errors they kept they introduced their own, one of which is OSAS. As I've said there is not a single passage of Scripture in all 66 books that says salvation can't be lost. Do you believe a doctrine of this magnitude would go without mention anywhere in Scripture? I said before that this doctrine was reject by the early church as heresy and those who taught it were the Gnostics. The apostle John didn't have good things to say about the Gnostics.

Anyone who is going to be intellectually honest has to ask themselves how this doctrine could be rejected by the church for 1400 years and yet be what the Scriptures teach. As you said, it is between the lines, that means it's not there. It exists by way of inference. Christians infer it from passage of Scripture. The reason it is inferred is because it's not there.

Here is a quote from Origen which was before the year 300 AD. Note his opposition to what appears to be today's Calvinism.

8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God, who has mercy upon the spiritual, but hardens the earthly.

Notice he says those who say, man has no free will, a ruined nature incapable of salvation, and cannot be lost, are misusing the passages. All three of those tenets are part of Calvinism.

The doctrine isn't in the Scriptures, was rejected by the church for 1400 years and still is rejected by the church, was argued against and declared heresy by the earliest Christians. Do you really suppose that Luther and Calvin knew something that the previous millions of Christians didn't? I don't think so. They let their presuppositions and world view color their view of Scripture. Instead of trying to build a theology strictly from the Scriptures the simply modified their existing theological systems which already contained errors.
 
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JESUSKiDtommy

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Now THATS cultic. The absolute truth of God is relative to how each one of us perceives it eh? Nope. truth matters. Tired of people trying to pretend like truth isn't what Christianity is about. Message denied



Would that include you playing God telling people what they should and should not discuss? Always in these get on the soapbox moments the one person who is calling every one else full of self pride is the one with their chest out the furthest. They never fail to miss their own pride and judgment of others in the process of their pointless accusatory lecture.

Even when they are screaming with caps they miss themselves in the mirror

So Mike glad to know you are so tight with GOD and that HE reveals the hypocrites to you.....From what you stated about ultimate TRUTH NOT BEING RELATIVE to how we take it you must think there is one TRUE church with correct doctrine of ultimate TRUTH and the rest of us be hellbound? Only a blind person would claim that men do not take the SCRIPTURE in different ways to mean different things

If you can't look around in this world and SEE that people do indeed take the WORD differently then are you deeming yourself the ultimate TRUTH authority??? And I did not tell anyone what they should or should not discuss....i simply gave my thoughts on the subject.... and it will be me that stands before GOD for the things i think, say, and do.... just like you will. and YOU can tell HIM why you thought a man saying we need to be centered on CHRIST LOVE and living out HIS teachings was only presenting a pointless accusatory lecture............ so let's just wait and allow GOD to judge between us ok?
 
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JESUSKiDtommy

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Now THATS cultic. The absolute truth of God is relative to how each one of us perceives it eh? Nope. truth matters. Tired of people trying to pretend like truth isn't what Christianity is about. Message denied



Would that include you playing God telling people what they should and should not discuss? Always in these get on the soapbox moments the one person who is calling every one else full of self pride is the one with their chest out the furthest. They never fail to miss their own pride and judgment of others in the process of their pointless accusatory lecture.

Even when they are screaming with caps they miss themselves in the mirror

So Mike glad to know you are so tight with GOD and that HE reveals the hypocrites to you.....From what you stated about ultimate TRUTH NOT BEING RELATIVE to how we take it you must think there is one TRUE church with correct doctrine of ultimate TRUTH and the rest of us be hellbound? Only a blind person would claim that men do not take the SCRIPTURE in different ways to mean different things

If you can't look around in this world and SEE that people do indeed take the WORD differently then are you deeming yourself the ultimate TRUTH authority??? And I did not tell anyone what they should or should not discuss....i simply gave my thoughts on the subject.... and it will be me that stands before GOD for the things i think, say, and do.... just like you will. and YOU can tell HIM why you thought a man saying we need to be centered on CHRIST LOVE and living out HIS teachings was only presenting a pointless accusatory lecture............ so let's just wait and allow GOD to judge between us ok?
 
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MikeEnders

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While talking about these things, God tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Find out what things are gifts and you will know what is irrevocable.

The scriptures tell us that salvation is a gift.

Therefore salvation is not revocable.

"Context" has nothing to do with it.

Pretty ridiculous statement. Context always has to do with any study where language is involved. Many of God's blessing are conditional even if we agree salvation is not one that you lose. Those blessings are also gifts and you don't always have them so context has everything to do with every verse. To say otherwise is just poor hermeneutics.

Romans 11 is a poor passage to use in this context. You are right there are others. Thats why we don't have to butcher this one. This passage is saying Jews will be remembered as a people and will come back to God because there is a corporate gift to the jews. Were all jews there saved? Nope so its not talking about gifts to individuals.
 
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MikeEnders

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so let's just wait and allow GOD to judge between us ok?

I am not as arrogant to think I will beating my chest with how righteous I am standing before God. However i like my chances on this issue compared to the guy teaching things out of the pit of hell like God's absolute truth is relative. I don't have to be God to reject that mumbo jumbo. sure there are things people disagree on but there are many absolute truths that are known and held by plenty of believers even across denominations

we need to be centered on CHRIST LOVE and living out HIS teachings

Says who? Thought you just said anyone that thinks he knows some truth thinks he is God? oh but you know thats some truth from God so I guess you think you are God? and umm how do you know what his teaching since it all depends on my perspective?

Meanwhile just as I said look who has his chest stuck out in pride the farthest? You even envision yourself standing before God and me with God telling you how righteous you are over me.

Sheesh now THATS arrogance
 
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MikeEnders

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. As I've said there is not a single passage of Scripture in all 66 books that says salvation can't be lost. Do you believe a doctrine of this magnitude would go without mention anywhere in Scripture?

No I don't which is why it is mentioned and your claim there is none is just empty talk betrayed by the facts

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
1 john 3:9

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
1 john 5:18

If you can't continue in sin how would you ever lose salvation? Further Jesus himself said no believer will be lost

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."…
John 6

CLEAR.............AS..............DAY

Anyone who is going to be intellectually honest has to ask themselves how this doctrine could be rejected by the church for 1400 years and yet be what the Scriptures teach

anyone that is being honest knows you are blowing smoke. Your are claiming something as fact without proving it as if it should be taken on your authority as fact. We have very few writers in the first and second century for you to claim to know what they all rejected. So honest people know its just special pleading on your part.

Here is a quote from Origen which was before the year 300 AD

Origen is not the early church but 200+ years after it- Not an apostle , he never met one and did not write a single line of scripture. He lived in a post apostolic world which the apostles prophecied themselves would be marked with false teaching. Origen is interesting therefore for things but he carries no huge weight
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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It is saying we all go to hell for our sins. It is saying that the cost of all of these sins is hell.

That's right. There's no such thing as OSAS. It's clearly stated, you go to hell if you chose to follow sin.

If we could lose our salvation because of sin, none of us would go to heaven.

That's right. OSAS advocates think they're going to heaven and nothing can stop them. So they live in a false security without any effort to repent and turn from sinful nature.

Paul tells us, we are to change and transform ourselves through Christ till we become a new man, one that no longer sin.

Romans 12:2 (ESV) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

1 John 3:9 (ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

You have to be IN CHRIST to be transform. You have to be IN CHRIST to be a new creation. You have to be IN CHRIST to be born again. You have to be IN CHRIST to stop sinning. You have to be IN CHRIST to be saved.


Bottom line is this, once saved always saved is absolutely false if you're once a sinner always a sinner.

You have to change your old carnal nature, it's that simple. If you can't overcome this transformation, you won't be saved. It's written all over in Revelation 2-3.
 
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The question was:

Can a "saved" person continually indulge in any and all those
sins and remain saved?


The only appropriate answers are a "yes" or a "no."

And you "yes" or "no" answer is:

My answer is YES - if by 'saved' you mean 'justified'. However, if you mean 'sanctified' or 'saved from sin' the answer is NO. Obviously, if you're in sin you're not exactly being saved from it!

If it insults us that people remain justified even if they indulge in horrible sins we need to be asking ourselves exactly how much we think we are justified by our own righteousness. The reality is that the Gospel is offensive and this is precisely one of the reasons why it's offensive: not because it says you must fix your life (every philosophy and religion in the world says that) but because it says your fixing doesn't justify you before God. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and wanted to be "like God". This tendency to want to be "like God" and decide on good and evil and be good on ourselves is what unbelief is all about - we'll rather believe in ourselves than believe and trust in Christ.

I think if you answer "no" to this question you have to ask yourself why.

If I understand you, you are saying that a person can intentionally and continually participate in the most heinous sins imaginable and, as long as he was "saved" at some earlier time, when he dies he goes straight to heaven.

Following that puerile illogic, we can expect someone who was a devout Christian in his youth, but who later "fell away", to be ushered directly into heaven when he died. That would include Adolf Hitler.

Brilliant, exegesis.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I think it'll be fun to answer it anyway. Yes, someone who was a devout Christian and who later fell away will be ushered directly into heaven, but with no reward. As 1 Cor 3:15 says, "he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

This is not childish (puerile) but it is scandalous ("causing general public outrage by a perceived offence against morality or law".) However, a lot comes down to what you mean by salvation. Typically we only limit this word to mean justification, but biblically it seems to include other things as well - other things that can be lost.
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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When the Lord said "I never knew you" He pretty much answered the question about whether this passage is appropriate to use to teach loss of salvation.

Never means never. If He never knew them they were never saved.

All this passage really seems to teach is that those who never knew Him in this life will continue in that state forever.

No that's not what it means. As always, you're just indulging yourself in eisegesis. God knows everything about each of us, even the very number of hairs on your head.

Luke 12:7 King James Bible
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

When there is no relationship is the ONLY time Christ figuratively say to those I never knew you.

Matthew 7:19-23 NKJV
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Deny it all you want but Matthew 7 is about Christians that continues to follow sin, does not bear good fruit, and thrown into the fire. Marvin, wake up, this ain't a BBQ.

And I'm pretty sure your argument will be "they were never saved!" Yeah well that's kind of a oxymoron mentality.
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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So becoming sincere and without offense till the day of Christ and filled with the fruits of righteousness with love abounding more and more is not salvation?

If it isn't - it'll do til salvation comes.:)

You're just assuming Paul spoke about salvation.

"Becoming sincere and without offense till the day of Christ and filled with the fruits of righteousness with love abounding more and more" can also imply one living the eternal life or being born again or one who overcomes or one experiencing the kingdom of God or one who's a new creation or one who been transformed or one who stopped sinning or one in a deep personal relationship with Christ.

These are all byproducts of being in Christ. How do you know it's salvation? Salvation only happens after you passed away while all the other scenarios happen before death. Salvation would be the least obvious choice.
 
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Matthew Twentyfour

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But whatever the situation was that occasioned the statement - God makes a bold statement that the gifts of God are irrevocable. That means all gifts unless specified differently.

One of God's gifts is salvation.

Therefore salvation is irrevocable.

Marvin, you're not impressing anyone nor are you convincing in your eisegesis approach of the bible. Even those that believe in OSAS can see your fabrication of Romans 11:29 by merely reading the whole chapter of Romans 11.

It's clearly stated in the surrounding verses the gifts are the blessings originally promised to the Jewish people through Abraham and Jacob.

However, you just willfully continue to ignore what's clearly written in the bible.

Romans 11:1-2 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:


Romans 11:26-30 Good News Translation (GNT)
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says,
“The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
[URL='http://romans%2011:28-30Good%20News%20Translation%20(GNT)%20%2028%20Because%20they%20reject%20the%20Good%20News,%20the%20Jews%20are%20God's%20enemies%20for%20the%20sake%20of%20you%20Gentiles.%20But%20because%20of%20God's%20choice,%20they%20are%20his%20friends%20because%20of%20their%20ancestors.%2029%20For%20God%20does%20not%20change%20his%20mind%20about%20whom%20he%20chooses%20and%20blesses.%2030%20As%20for%20you%20Gentiles,%20you%20disobeyed%20God%20in%20the%20past;%20but%20now%20you%20have%20received%20God's%20mercy%20because%20the%20Jews%20were%20disobedient./']27 I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses. 30 As for you Gentiles, you disobeyed God in the past; but now you have received God's mercy because the Jews were disobedient.[/URL]
 
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Anyone who is going to be intellectually honest has to ask themselves how this doctrine could be rejected by the church for 1400 years and yet be what the Scriptures teach.

You can't really wax lyrical about how Luther and Calvin were influenced by the Catholics, and imply this is what helped to bring them into error, and then use the Catholic Church's judgement (who were the church for 1400 years) on OSAS being heresy as a basis for saying why Luther and Calvin were wrong. Origen is also not the best source - remember, he did teach the pre-existence of souls (and was a universalist).
 
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