Natural law of Creation 'and the two shall become one flesh’ No longer valid in US

[Hoshiyya]

And yet, people are happy to say homosexuality is wrong because it wasn't present in a literal reading of Genesis. I'm just pointing out the apparent double standard.

Homosexuality is present in Genesis, and very clearly present later in the Torah, and is not approved of.

There are two types of incest between siblings. The incest of the antediluvians, and later incest.

Incest among siblings, especially indirect siblings, was not frowned upon in Torah to the same degree as homosexuality.
However, it was also understood that for the very first incest, the antediluvian incest, was a necessity for the actual procreation of mankind, and it is assumed that the genetic problems arising from incest today were not present in those times.

Those who are against homosexuality today give a special pass to the antediluvian incest. But when it is not actually required for the survival of the species, it is certainly preferable to avoid it, both for physical and mental/emotional and societal reasons.

 

[janwoG]

One has to acknowledge that we are not living anymore in a cultural Christian society and it makes very difficult to keep one's children in the fold of a Godly culture. However, the orthodox Jews show us how to survive in a pagan environment in upholding the Torah, which is the true life tree. Messianic should establish a network of Torah abiding communities versus families. The profane world may call anything they wont a marriage. For us only Messianic and Christian weddings are true. Leave Cesar to have one's opinions. We know what is Ha Shem Opinion in consulting the Torah.

 

[Hoshiyya]

G-d called Abraham OUT of Ur... Lot in frank disobedience went to Sodom. That decision cost Lot dearly. Lost his wife, impregnated both of his daughters and their offspring would later become bitter enemies of Israel.

We are to live orderly. But this is not done....

Their agenda is not over... marriage is on the beginning they want acceptance and the will strive to have the bible categorized as hate speech and any believer or pastor that teaches Homosexuality as a sin will face dire consequences... that is the next thing to come down the pike... just watch

Let me be honest, because that's all I can be. Nothing you say here relates to my post or the point of my post which is this:

You cannot control your neighbour's house. If your neighbours have homosexual sex with each other, you cannot stop them. But you hypothetically CAN control your own house.

As point of fact, Lot clearly did have control of his own house, but did indeed make a poor decision in moving to Sodom.

 

[Hoshiyya]

One has to acknowledge that we are not living anymore in a cultural Christian society and it makes very difficult to keep one's children in the fold of a Godly culture. However, the orthodox Jews show us how to survive in a pagan environment in upholding the Torah, which is the true life tree. Messianic should establish a network of Torah abiding communities versus families. The profane world may call anything they wont a marriage. For us only Messianic and Christian weddings are true. Leave Cesar to have one's opinions. We know what is Ha Shem Opinion in consulting the Torah.

Couldn't agree more !

You make several great points that I want to enumerate and reply to.


1. One has to acknowledge that we are not living anymore in a cultural Christian society.

Very true.

And one can of course question the value of the Christian identity from a MJ standpoint. Sure they believed in God, but it is not like they were keeping Shabbat. Many of the American founding fathers were slave-owners, even.

And actually, if it were Christian and serious about being Christian, chances are it would be more difficult for the Jews and for the MJs in that society. Jews would statistically be much more likely to face persecution or discrimination, and "eccentric religions" like MJ would not fare better.

2. the orthodox Jews show us how to survive in a pagan environment in upholding the Torah

Exactly. We don't need to walk about as blind people in darkness. There is a MODEL to follow, and it is the Jewish one. We have a guideline for how to function in this diaspora, prior to the establishing of the Kingdom.

3. Messianic should establish a network of Torah abiding communities versus families

Not sure what you mean by "versus" though, but I guess you're pointing to the manner the Jews use to organize in the diaspora.

4. The profane world may call anything they want a marriage.

Exactly. And they call statues God as well.
Who cares? We can't stop them. As scripture says:

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Rev 22:11)

 

[Chicken Little]

And this has nothing to do with gay marriage.

By the way, MOST countries have very strict gunlaws. Let's take any Scandinavian country as an example, which has strict gun laws. Even aside from their gun laws, getting a gun in Scandinavia is very difficult, even if operating illegally. And as a result of nobody having guns, almost nobody gets killed with guns in Norway, Sweden or Denmark. Making guns more accessible in Scandinavia would lead to more people getting killed by guns.

Today, almost nobody gets killed by guns there, because almost nobody OWNS guns there. And the same rule applies everywhere.

boy did you miss the point or what..
sorry but it has everything to do with taking the bible out of America and letting bacchanalia/lawlessness run.
they want to "do what you will" do you know what this really means ?
well my old city the youth facility and the orphanages where the poor and the defenseless kids are taken when their undocumented adults are taken back to mexico.. they are dropped there
" for protection " and the child prostitution rings are run by the Judges, the lawyers and Newspaper men who covered it up to cater to the rich.

Tearing down the protection of belief in the Bible and a belief and a hope good laws and justice and in His peace and in His truth is their Goal.
They want bacchanalia , don't give it to them. they want lawlessness and hopelessness they want us to destroy ourselves and leave them the defenseless. Just don't help them.

 

[Hoshiyya]

boy did you miss the point or what..
sorry but it has everything to do with taking the bible out of America and letting bacchanalia/lawlessness run.
they want to "do what you will" do you know what this really means ?
well my old city the youth facility and the orphanages where the poor and the defenseless kids are taken when their undocumented adults are taken back to mexico.. they are dropped there
" for protection " and the child prostitution rings are run by the Judges, the lawyers and Newspaper men who covered it up to cater to the rich.

Tearing down the protection of belief in the Bible and a belief and a hope good laws and justice and in His peace and in His truth is their Goal.
They want bacchanalia , don't give it to them. they want lawlessness and hopelessness they want us to destroy ourselves and leave them the defenseless. Just don't help them.

You say that I miss the point, but can't show how I missed the point. So it sounds like you're just being defensive rather than objective.

"Child prostitution rings ran by judges" and same-sex marriage are two separate things.

You keep trying to connect gay marriage to other things. First it was guns, now it is pedophile prostitution. I am sure we will soon hear how the gays were responsible for 9-11 and pearl harbor. Good grief !

 

[Chicken Little]

You say that I miss the point, but can't show how I missed the point. So it sounds like you're just being defensive rather than objective.

"Child prostitution rings ran by judges" and same-sex marriage are two separate things.

You keep trying to connect gay marriage to other things. First it was guns, now it is pedophile prostitution. I am sure we will soon hear how the gays were responsible for 9-11 and pearl harbor. Good grief !

NO LAW is the real subject , lawlessness is the real objective.
this was never about a cake (or a marriage license, just watch )

 

[Hoshiyya]

NO LAW is the real subject , lawlessness is the real objective.
this was never about a cake (or a marriage license just watch )

It was never about a cake, nor guns, nor pedophilia --- this thread is, as clearly defined in the OP, about the US supreme court deciding to make Same-sex marriage legal in the USA.

You are the one who's deciding to connect the OP subject to other subjects.

And that can be acceptable, but sometimes it gets a bit out of hand.

 

[Chicken Little]

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints
of the most High, and think to change times and laws

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed
abomination: they shall surely be put to death


You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination. ... "'You shall
not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestable. ...


Abomination, detestable, is this because it is the bedrock of our world, man and woman, first commandment, be fruitful and multiply, this is in total disregard of this commandment is it not?

OH I think she and I are on the same page , it is you that is trying to make it about cakes.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Well if you want to talk about guns and pedophilia (and you keep bringing up cakes for some reason), even though the thread is not about that, go ahead.

I don't see the connection between homosexuality and guns, so to me at least, there is no value to ranting or raving about such a connection, and to be honest, I think most people fail to see the conenction between these two subjects.

Most people would benefit more from an intelligent and analytical post, than from a nonsensical and hysterical one. To be honest, in some parts of your posts you sound like you're about to snap.

 

[TheBarrd]

TB said:

"If we run scared, then our salt has lost it's savor, and is good for nothing but to be trampled under the feet of men.
And rest assured, that is exactly what will happen. If we run, the wolves will chase us, and it'll be pass the mint jell, we're having lamb for dinner tonight.
We must not let them frighten us into hiding our light under a bushel...lest they manage to put it out entirely. We MUST stand and fight...the more when we are losing the battle. We MUST trust in our Lord, now more than ever!"​

and:

"We absolutely cannot let them hold us back, Aldebaran. We MUST remember always, as my Grandmother taught me long ago...who we are and Who we represent.
We are the children of God. We do not belong to ourselves, we were bought with a price...and a terribly high price it was! How our Father must love us, to pay such a ransom for us!
And how do we thank Him? Do we run at the first growl of the wolf?
I will walk into the fray, armed with my Sword and holding my Shield, with my Breastplate in place, and my Shoes on my feet!
Who will go with me?"​

A bit sensational ?

You don't happen to work for Fox News, or a Christian newspaper, or something ?

I just don't see what this has to do with gay marriage.

Gay people are going to be gay and have sex, regardless of if it is called marriage or not, so what difference does it make ?

I notice however that some of your arguments are specific to the fact that you live in the USA and consider it superior to other countries, which makes it difficult to engage you on the subject.

I hoped to be able to adress you as a fellow believer, but chances are you will understand these words as coming from a "non-American", a Xenos, a stranger, rather than from a fellow citizen of Shamayim (heaven).

You said the phrase "government by the people, for the people" makes you laugh. Indeed, not only is the phrase untrue, but it by definition cannot be true, hence it is a naive lie, just like the Communist equivalent "drujba narodov" (friendship of all peoples); it is just a state slogan.

First of all, I want to reassure you....the topic under discussion here is the new ruling by the United States Supreme Court making gay marriage legal in the United States. Do I think the US is "superior to other countries"? I think every kid that grows up in this country has been taught that, and it's kinda hard to ditch that notion once we are adults. Of course, most of us do know better, intellectually, I hope. But this is our country and we do care about it.
As far as me being "sensational", thank you. As you guessed, I am a writer.
I am opposed to gay marriage, or homosexual behavior outside of gay marriage, because my God is opposed to it. My first citizenship is in His Kingdom, therefore He alone is my King. My King has outlawed it, therefore I must obey Him and speak out against it. You also claim citizenship in His Kingdom, therefore, you too should be speaking out against it.

 

[TheBarrd]

And this has nothing to do with gay marriage.

By the way, MOST countries have very strict gunlaws. Let's take any Scandinavian country as an example, which has strict gun laws. Even aside from their gun laws, getting a gun in Scandinavia is very difficult, even if operating illegally. And as a result of nobody having guns, almost nobody gets killed with guns in Norway, Sweden or Denmark. Making guns more accessible in Scandinavia would lead to more people getting killed by guns.

Today, almost nobody gets killed by guns there, because almost nobody OWNS guns there. And the same rule applies everywhere.

Unfortunately, getting guns in the U.S. is very easy. In fact, if we outlaw guns here, it is a pretty good bet that the only ones to own guns will be outlaws.
People who use guns to kill are not going to worry too much about a gun being against the law...

 

[Aldebaran]

I just don't see what this has to do with gay marriage.

Gay people are going to be gay and have sex, regardless of if it is called marriage or not, so what difference does it make ?

Yes, and people are going to commit murder even if there's a law against that. But that doesn’t mean you need to stand up in approval of it by supporting a law that legalizes it. Same with homosexual sex and homosexual marriage. Sure, people are going to have homosexual sex, but it doesn’t mean that I have to be in support of it by being in support of a law legalizing the recognition of it.

Do you really think that we should pass laws that legalize anything people are going to do anyway? If you do, then I’d be surprised if you think we should have any laws or order at all.

 

[RDKirk]

And building on that: Lot didn't try to run Sodom. Nor did Abraham try to run Ur.

They kept control of their own households, they weren't trying to boss around others and run other people's households.

In fact, doing so would probably detract from the time necessary to focus on keeping their own house pure.

That's what homeschooling is for.

 

[RDKirk]

"That was and remains the point, to get yourselves out of harms way"

I don't see how that contradicts what I said. I am saying, get yourself out of harms way.

Lot didn't try to run Sodom, he tried to run away from Sodom.

To the extent he lived there, he had no illusion of lording over the others there. Likewise, we live in human society. God doesn't require us to live in the wilderness. Scripture assures that we may be IN the world without being OF the world (John 17:14, 16; John 15:19).

Actually he did try...and failed. Genesis tells us that Lot was a judge at the gates of Sodom, and 2 peter tells us that the unrighteousness of the Sodomites vexed Lot. But back in Genesis, we also see that the Sodomites rejected Lot's judgment. So the less we gain is that attempting to judge unbelievers results ultimately in failure. In fact, this re-enforces Paul when he tells us "God will judge those outside; you judge those inside."

We can be in Egypt without being Egyptian. We can be in France, the US or Japan, without being French, American or Japanese - we are called to be citizens of heaven (Philippians 1:27, 3:20). As scripture says, "Do not be conformed to this world, but continuously be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may be able to determine what God's will is—what is proper, pleasing, and perfect" (Romans 12:2.)

Yes, that is all true--and even though Joseph was the second highest official in Egypt, even though he had an Egyptian wife, he still insisted that Egypt was not his home and demanded that when his people did return home, make sure they took his bones with them. Other OT examples include Daniel and Mordecai, who were the most excellent high officials under two of the most despicable rulers in history. With regard to Daniel's three friends, this is a very important verse--the first scripture that separates church and state:

There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the affairs of the province of Babylon: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. These men, O king, pay no attention to you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”

In ancient times, there was no separation of church and state. The king was considered to be a god or at the very least the speaker on earth for their god. The king had very much had the right to dictate how his kingdom worshipped. Even into the Roman empire, the emperor held the title of Pontifex Maximus--Most High Priest. If you see a statue of the emperor with his togo pulled over his head, that's the sign that he's operating in his role as Pontifex Maximus.

But note how the three Jews respond:

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter."

Whoa! Wait a minute! The king has every power and right to dictate religion to his kingdom. Yet, these three men tell him to his face that their worship is none of his business!

 

[Hoshiyya]

Gen. 19:1 says he sat in the gate, but doesn't say he was a judge. Verse 9 makes it clear he was not a judge.

2 Peter 2:8 says he was grieved in his heart at what he saw in his surroundings. That's what I am referring to when I say he wanted to get away from Sodom.

You guys can keep trying to correct me, or you can try to get the point.

However I do agree with what you say in the rest of your post, relative to national belonging.

And I like your signature:

Heaven is my nation.
This world is just a dwelling place--

Being too attached to any wordly nation is, for a true believer, simply put sin. It is missing the mark.

 

[TheBarrd]

Yes, and people are going to commit murder even if there's a law against that. But that doesn’t mean you need to stand up in approval of it by supporting a law that legalizes it. Same with homosexual sex and homosexual marriage. Sure, people are going to have homosexual sex, but it doesn’t mean that I have to be in support of it by being in support of a law legalizing the recognition of it.

Do you really think that we should pass laws that legalize anything people are going to do anyway? If you do, then I’d be surprised if you think we should have any laws or order at all.

AMEN!
I get kinda tired of the "they're gonna do it anyways" argument.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yes, and people are going to commit murder even if there's a law against that. But that doesn’t mean you need to stand up in approval of it by supporting a law that legalizes it. Same with homosexual sex and homosexual marriage. Sure, people are going to have homosexual sex, but it doesn’t mean that I have to be in support of it by being in support of a law legalizing the recognition of it.

Do you really think that we should pass laws that legalize anything people are going to do anyway? If you do, then I’d be surprised if you think we should have any laws or order at all.

Apples and caramels. Absolutely incomparable. You know better than this.

If there is a law (that is enforced) against murder, fewer will do it. Less people will get killed.

But if there is a law against homosexual marriage, people will still have homosexual sex, and also homosexual partnerships, whether they are called marriage or not.

Here's a valid comparison:

Make a law against homosexuality ITSELF, and punish those who commit homsexuality. THEN it will be comparable.

Your post, as it stands, is intellectually dishonest, or at least intellecutally flawed, in my view.


"Do you really think that we should pass laws that legalize anything people are going to do anyway? If you do, then I’d be surprised if you think we should have any laws or order at all."

What's all this "we" stuff ? I follow the laws of God. If you believe in another God, or interpret his Word differently, I expect you will follow different laws.

 

[Hoshiyya]

AMEN!
I get kinda tired of the "they're gonna do it anyways" argument.

Maybe because you didn't UNDERSTAND the argument ?
So you had to reduce it to a strawman, rather than adress it ?

No strawman makes sense, so why make something into a strawman ?

 

[Winepress777]

“Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Yes, this is something that happened in the US, but is TROTW far behind?

Supreme Court Ruling Makes Same-Sex Marriage a Right Nationwide

Marriage is a “keystone of our social order,”

Redefining marriage, part of what Daniel wrote about?

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints
of the most High, and think to change times and laws

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed
abomination: they shall surely be put to death


You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination. ... "'You shall
not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestable. ...


Abomination, detestable, is this because it is the bedrock of our world, man and woman, first commandment, be fruitful and multiply, this is in total disregard of this commandment is it not?

That's why of all sins, sodomy, along with inappropriate behavior with animals, are referred to as "vile abominations" by God and His Sons.