No One Man Pastor ministry over all

[Open Heart]

In these traditions, there has been a massive schism in the body of Christ, between the so called, “Clergy”, and the “Laity”. This is a false traition and not based on the scritpures of truth.

Clergy refers to those offices in the church which are ORDAINED (the laying on of hands). It distinguishes them from the laity (people) who are not ordained. This tradition is scriptural,not man made. You read about the laying of hands in the NT for elders/presbyters (presbyteros), helpers/deacons (diakonos), and overseers/bishops (episkopos).

 

[Open Heart]

Clearly in scripture we see the exact oppostie of a one man pastor ministry, as we have already pointed out. Here are just a few of the verses that show mutual edification of the body and not a just one man pastor ministry.

If a pastor doesn't have helpers to lead Bible Studies, Adult education, run the Sunday schools, etc., he is a very foolish pastor indeed. But all the pastors I've known have plenty of help from the laity.

 

[Open Heart]

So we do not need men to teach us in reality, for God does it directly? And where is man’s order in this? Scripture reveals this to us,

On the contrary, the apostles taught, and they ordained others that they could trust to teach the gospel as it had been taught to them by the apostles. In Clement's first letter to the Corinthians, he admonishes them for treating their presbyter without respect. It is the ordained in the Apostolic church who had teaching authority.

 

[Open Heart]

But elders are not in a authority as the gentile authority are.

the clergy are servants of the laity, even though they were in authority over them; just as Jesus, who is the supreme authority, washed the disciples' feet.

 

[Open Heart]

Paul wrote to the churches he almost always wrote to the whole church to the brothers and sister. Not to a pastor.

Paul also wrote specific letters to presbyters, such as Timothy and Titus.

 

[Open Heart]

This is because of the confusion that took place in Constantines time around 325 Ad and on.

Ee gads. Constantine myth alert. Again.

 

[Open Heart]

if a perosn is an "elder", thats who they are an older brother, more mature in the faith.

An elder/presbyter is an ordained office (laying on of hands), which does distinguish them from the non-ordained laity. The ordination bequeaths teaching authority. We can read Paul's recommendations to Timothy and get some of the picture of what presbyters do. There is also plenty of information about them in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. For example, the Didache says, "Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, gentle men and not lovers of money, truthful and tested. For they also perform the liturgy [lit, “liturgize the liturgy”] of the prophets and teachers.... They are your honored ones with the prophets and teachers."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Actually, it was more common for there to be one elder/presbyter (priest) in each church, supported by helpers/deacons. If the church was a metropolitan church such as Antioch or Jerusalem, a overseer/bishop would be the one man in charge, with presbyters and deacons assisting him.

hello, wrong, not according to scripture and every member can share at any time in the gatherings, which were almost exclusively in homes for a bout 300 years or so as historians also testify to.

 

[LoveofTruth]

While this was true at first, presbyters and bishops were quickly separated in their roles, with bishops being the head over the presbyters in their area.

I am going by the apostolic order from God as Paul wrote not from the church traditions that developed and made the word of God of no effect.

and it is still true what John wrote that we have no need that any man should teach us 1 John 2:26,27, the anointing teaches us of all things.

and the gifts are five fold in Ephesians 4:10,11 not just a pastor gift

 

[Open Heart]

hello, wrong, not according to scripture and every member can share at any time in the gatherings, which were almost exclusively in homes for a bout 300 years or so as historians also testify to.

this is flagrantly untrue. see my other posts.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ee gads. Constantine myth alert. Again.

no Myth the history is everywhere to those who would search. Constantine set up 7 refurbished pagan temples in Rome and 1 in Constantenople and 1 in bethlehem and Israel as I understand. These were soon to become churches ( unbiblically) in time. And he had men set up over them. This was the foundation for the state churches we see all through history and the silent body ministry as we see everywhere today. But the bible speaks very different.

 

[Open Heart]

and the gifts are five fold in Ephesians 4:10,11 not just a pastor gift

but of those five gifts, only the pastor/presbyter ordained.

 

[LoveofTruth]

this is flagrantly untrue. see my other posts.

“and breaking bread from house to house,” ( Acts 2;46)

“ As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. “ (Acts 8:3) Paul knew where to find them.

“ And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house”(Acts 20:20)

“Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)

“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)

“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)

“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)

“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed” (2 John 10 )

“And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed. “ (Acts 16:40)

“And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying” (Acts 12:12)

“But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people” (Acts 17:5)

It is clear that the Spirit led them to do this as a pattern and this is the way Paul and others ordered gatherings as they were following God’s order in the Spirit. We know this because Paul was confident that he was following Christ as a wise masterbuilder and he was led by the Spirit in what he did as were the other apostles who followed Christ in this as well. This leading Paul had included whatever things the believers learned from him, and what he did in word or deed, (Philippians 4:9). This would include setting church order in homes around Christ. If Paul did not plant churches this way, where do we think they got the idea to meet as they did? The question is not do we have to do things the way they did ? The question is why would you want to do anything else?

I am not speaking any thing untrue

 

[LoveofTruth]

but of those five gifts, only the pastor/presbyter ordained.

wrong, show me that in scripture?

an elder can be an apostle also or they can have any of the gifts. And there were apostles given AFTER Jesus rose again

 

[Albion]

Hello again, I must disagree here, the word elder means "Older, senior" in Greek.

Sure. Many words have multiple meanings. In the scriptures, an elder is a cleric, the equivalent of a presbyter. We may suppose that the youngest members of the congregation were less likely to fill the position than one of the more seasoned members, but it's not just a reference to an older person. We also know how the churches operated from ordinary, historical accounts.

Also Paul called the elders in Acts 20 and we read that the Holy Ghost made them overseers. So an elder is also an overseer.

When an overseer was needed, one of the elders was chosen. This is the bishop spoken of in the New Testament.

also you mention clergymen, and laypersons. This clergy and laity division is nowhere found in scripture.

Of course, it is. The qualifications are spelled out in some detail. If a man were NOT qualified, he would obviously enough still be a member...as a layman.

 

[Open Heart]

These were soon to become churches ( unbiblically) in time.

I don't know why the conversion of a pagan temple to a Christian church would be considered unbiblical. Isn't the church all about converting pagans?

 

[Open Heart]

“and breaking bread from house to house,” ( Acts 2;46)

“ As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. “ (Acts 8:3) Paul knew where to find them.

“ And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house”(Acts 20:20)

“Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)

“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)

“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)

“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)

“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed” (2 John 10 )

“And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed. “ (Acts 16:40)

“And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying” (Acts 12:12)

“But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people” (Acts 17:5)

It is clear that the Spirit led them to do this as a pattern and this is the way Paul and others ordered gatherings as they were following God’s order in the Spirit. We know this because Paul was confident that he was following Christ as a wise masterbuilder and he was led by the Spirit in what he did as were the other apostles who followed Christ in this as well. This leading Paul had included whatever things the believers learned from him, and what he did in word or deed, (Philippians 4:9). This would include setting church order in homes around Christ. If Paul did not plant churches this way, where do we think they got the idea to meet as they did? The question is not do we have to do things the way they did ? The question is why would you want to do anything else?

I am not speaking any thing untrue

Stop pasting all this stuff that is irrelevant to a reply. It makes me not want to read your posts (just as I didn't read this one.).

 

[LoveofTruth]

An elder/presbyter is an ordained office (laying on of hands), which does distinguish them from the non-ordained laity. The ordination bequeaths teaching authority. We can read Paul's recommendations to Timothy and get some of the picture of what presbyters do. There is also plenty of information about them in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. For example, the Didache says, "Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, gentle men and not lovers of money, truthful and tested. For they also perform the liturgy [lit, “liturgize the liturgy”] of the prophets and teachers.... They are your honored ones with the prophets and teachers."

also you mention clergymen, and laypersons. This clergy and laity division is nowhere found in scripture.

The word “clergy”, comes from the Greek word “kleros”, meaning “heritage, inhertitance or lot”, showing that believers are the inheritance, or heritage of God and it is used that way in scripture as we read ,

“ Neither as being lords over God’s heritage [Kleros], but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:3).

The word “laity” means comes from the word “laos”, meaning, “a people”, and it is used that way in scripture.

“And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people [laos].” ( 2 Corinthians 6:16)

There is no such thing as a clergy and latiy division. The “kleros:, and the “laity” both refer to the body of Christ. We are the inheritance of God and the people of God.

and there is definately no positional priestly role as in the OT. We are all a royal priesthood

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" 1 Peter 2:9

the priesthood of all believers and their various functions that they are commanded to allow in the gatherings are hindered 98 percent or more in most gatherings today under the wrong clergy and laity divide. This schism has ben there for a ong time between the men exalted over all and the body...sadly

and I do not follow the so called fathers, Jesus said call no man father for a reason. I follow the scriptures and the apostlic order from them. Paul was a wise masterbuilder and he taught the same thing in every church and he wanted others to bring the believers in remebrance of his ways which be in Christ. Paul commended some for keeping the traditions

right after the death of the early apostles we see error enter in

by the way where do you gather? what religious group?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't know why the conversion of a pagan temple to a Christian church would be considered unbiblical. Isn't the church all about converting pagans?

what??

no the church is the body of Christ not a man made building. The church is made a spiritual house of living stones

the word Church is ecclessia, meaning the called out assembly. It is never a man made building. This error changed the function of the church under Christ headship and bound up the saints

 

[LoveofTruth]

Stop pasting all this stuff that is irrelevant to a reply. It makes me not want to read your posts (just as I didn't read this one.).

I was showing you the biblical model of meeting in homes as the church should do today