Why does Jesus pray to himself, praise himself, plead with himself?

[alexiscurious]

Jesus praying to himself
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Jesus praising himself
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus pleading with himself
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Can anyone explain to me why Jesus needs to pray to himself? How about praising himself and pleading with himself? It seems quite unproductive and unusual. I don't understand why he would do any of these things if he was already God.

 

[oi_antz]

Jesus praying to himself
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Jesus praising himself
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus pleading with himself
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Can anyone explain to me why Jesus needs to pray to himself? How about praising himself and pleading with himself? It seems quite unproductive and unusual. I don't understand why he would do any of these things if he was already God.

What is this doctrine you are referring to?

This might help you with your quest:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2:5-8&version=OJB

(Check many translations of this BTW, I think Jehovah's Witness NWT is quite good on this passage).

 

[yesyoushould]

Son of God, Son of man.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jesus praying to himself
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Jesus praising himself
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus pleading with himself
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Can anyone explain to me why Jesus needs to pray to himself? How about praising himself and pleading with himself? It seems quite unproductive and unusual. I don't understand why he would do any of these things if he was already God.

While He was visiting us on the terrestrial plane, the physical body and mind of Jesus needed to commune with the Fullness of God, the Father. What is so difficult to understand about that?

 

[Hospes]

Jesus praying to himself
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Jesus praising himself
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus pleading with himself
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Can anyone explain to me why Jesus needs to pray to himself? How about praising himself and pleading with himself? It seems quite unproductive and unusual. I don't understand why he would do any of these things if he was already God.

I think if your curiosity would lead you to some good reading on the doctrine of the Trinity, you'd be ready for an answer; or maybe even answer your question on your own. Grudem's Systematic Theology is good. If you want a shorter version, read Chapter 6 of his Bible Doctrine.

 

[drich0150]

God is a title and not a specific deity's name, as in:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus praying to himself
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Jesus praising himself
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus pleading with himself
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Can anyone explain to me why Jesus needs to pray to himself? How about praising himself and pleading with himself? It seems quite unproductive and unusual. I don't understand why he would do any of these things if he was already God.

He didn't. He prayed to the Father, He's not the Father, He's the Son of the Father.

We say that He is God because, as the Son of the Father (from all eternity) He is God even as the Father is God. In the Nicene Creed we say He is homoousios with the Father, it translates to "of the same substance"; namely that even as the Father is God, so also is the Son God. Not a separate god, but fully God even as the Father is fully God.

Jesus, the Incarnate Son and Logos, prayed to the Father. Not to Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[alexiscurious]

He didn't. He prayed to the Father, He's not the Father, He's the Son of the Father.

We say that He is God because, as the Son of the Father (from all eternity) He is God even as the Father is God. In the Nicene Creed we say He is homoousios with the Father, it translates to "of the same substance"; namely that even as the Father is God, so also is the Son God. Not a separate god, but fully God even as the Father is fully God.

Jesus, the Incarnate Son and Logos, prayed to the Father. Not to Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

Why does he need to communicate with God the Father? What benefit could he possibly receive from praying?

I find his actions to be incredibly suspicious and not God-like at all, especially in the third example I mentioned. Why is an eternal being showing such cowardice when confronted with death? And why is he begging for it to be avoided? Are you sure we are not dealing with a man here?

 

[alexiscurious]

While He was visiting us on the terrestrial plane, the physical body and mind of Jesus needed to commune with the Fullness of God, the Father. What is so difficult to understand about that?

I don't see how communing with God the Father could benefit him at all if he was already God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why does he need to communicate with God the Father? What benefit could he possibly receive from praying?

I find his actions to be incredibly suspicious and not God-like at all, especially in the third example I mentioned. Why is an eternal being showing such cowardice when confronted with death? And why is he begging for it to be avoided? Are you sure we are not dealing with a man here?

Because the eternal being, in this scenario, is a mortal man. We confess that Christ is both God and Man. Not pretending to be a man, but actually human, with all the same weaknesses and fragility that comes with being human.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[alexiscurious]

I think if your curiosity would lead you to some good reading on the doctrine of the Trinity, you'd be ready for an answer; or maybe even answer your question on your own. Grudem's Systematic Theology is good. If you want a shorter version, read Chapter 6 of his Bible Doctrine.

I already understand the Trinity. I don't understand why the persons of the Trinity have to pray to each other, praise each other, and beg each other.

 

[alexiscurious]

Because the eternal being, in this scenario, is a mortal man. We confess that Christ is both God and Man. Not pretending to be a man, but actually human, with all the same weaknesses and fragility that comes with being human.

But at the same time he is 100% aware that he is an eternal being as well. There is no reason for him to be scared of death unless he wasn't aware that he was eternal.

 

[oi_antz]

Does someone know why it is assumed His eternal nature was not transferred to human form? The author of John says The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Alex, a human brain has a beginning and learns. It has constraints to it's perception of things because of it's reliance on bodily sensors, which from within a three dimensional place, means even Jesus as a man was limited in what He could perceive and the information He had encountered. The way He could perceive more than He could physically see, is through faith - trusting what His father told Him because of God's entire perception. He said to His disciples that He tells them what His father has told Him. It is the same faith that we need to exercise, as humans, if we are to obtain knowledge from God that we cannot physically perceive. Though, we do not have the same belief as Jesus did. I understand He was always told that He was God's son so He would always have naturally known His father that way, and this is a belief that we don't have.

 

[oi_antz]

But at the same time he is 100% aware that he is an eternal being as well. There is no reason for him to be scared of death unless he wasn't aware that he was eternal.

I am curious now. What do you imagine He was afraid of? Is this in reference to His sweating blood and imploring for the cup to be taken from Him?

 

[Hospes]

I already understand the Trinity. I don't understand why the persons of the Trinity have to pray to each other, praise each other, and beg each other.

I'll take you at your word, though I have no idea how you reconcile an understanding of the doctrine of the trinity with your question of Jesus praying to himself. I'll set aside this incongruity, though.

How does your concept of god contradict the three persons of the Trinity existing in community?

Also, if God is the most supremely praiseworthy of all that exists, who would you rather have him praise more than himself? Wouldn't it be wrong for him to praise something lesser over what is greater?

Finally, on what do you base the supposition Jesus feared death? If it is that he asked his Father if there was a way to not have to endure suffering, I am not sure how asking to avoid suffering necessarily requires an emotion of fear.

 

[hedrick]

I’m going to try to give you an orthodox answer, and not a personal one, since I think you’re asking about normal Trinitarian theology and not anyone’s personal views.

The exact relationship between God and man was the subject of several ancient councils. The final official one was the Third Council of Constantinople. It said that in order for Christ to be really human, there had to be a separate human will and separate human actions. It didn’t cite the exact Scripture that you have, but it did speak of a different passage in which Jesus submitted his will to the Father. It said that it was specifically the human will that submitted.

So if you accept the 7 ecumenical councils, the picture is a bit different from what you may have heard (and what we sometimes hear in CF). Christ is both God and man, and the humanity is sufficiently distinct that there is a separate human will, which submits to the Father. While consciousness in the modern sense doesn’t seem to have been involved in that discussion, I think the likely implication is that there was a separate human consciousness, with usual human limitations.

This explanation was intended to deal with exactly that kind of passage you’re concerned with. Jesus prayed to God because there was a human will that needed the support of God. After all, he was about to go through a very painful experience.

Of course the human nature is part of a single Person (where “Person” is used in a specific philosophical sense that doesn’t entirely agree with normal English usage). Hence the human actions, including that prayer, also show us God. Thus I would suggest to you that the human act of prayer to the Father is the human image of the communication that goes on between the Father and the Logos in eternity. According to the Trinity, God is not a simple unity, but has aspects of community. This is particularly the case in Eastern theology. According to this understanding, the relationship between Father and Son is a model for relationships within a human family.

-------------

This discussion runs the risk of looking like it is "Nestorian," i.e. that it separates the humanity and divinity of God too much. Thus you should be aware that I have explained only one aspect of classical Christology, and have not looked at what it means to call Christ one Person, even though he has a distinct human will, actions and (my speculation) consciousness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But at the same time he is 100% aware that he is an eternal being as well. There is no reason for him to be scared of death unless he wasn't aware that he was eternal.

Seeing as neither you or I are Deity, I don't think either of us is in a position to determine what the appropriate feelings a Divine-and-Human person in Hypostatic Union are supposed to be in any given circumstance.

I see no reason why Jesus, being a completely ordinary human being--though also truly God--should not feel the dread of death and suffering, or shouldn't experience doubt, loss, sadness, dismay, and all the other vast array of human emotions and experiences. Jesus isn't God in a human suit, Jesus is actually human.

How could Christ, being God, not know when the time of His return would be? I have no idea. How could Christ, being God, suffer and die?

The Mystery of the Incarnation is that God who cannot suffer, suffered, God who cannot die, died.

Since we do not separate the two natures (that would be Nestorianism) we can only and ever speak of the union of the natures, that Christ is fully God and Man without confusion and without separation. So when Christ suffers, it is God who suffers for Christ is God; when Christ heals the lame, it is a man who heals the lame for Christ is human. That which ought not be, is.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[alexiscurious]

Does someone know why it is assumed His eternal nature was not transferred to human form? The author of John says The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

It is assumed his eternal nature was transferred over because he rose from the grave. If his eternal nature wasn't transferred over, he would have stayed dead.

Alex, a human brain has a beginning and learns. It has constraints to it's perception of things because of it's reliance on bodily sensors, which from within a three dimensional place, means even Jesus as a man was limited in what He could perceive and the information He had encountered. The way He could perceive more than He could physically see, is through faith - trusting what His father told Him because of God's entire perception. He said to His disciples that He tells them what His father has told Him. It is the same faith that we need to exercise, as humans, if we are to obtain knowledge from God that we cannot physically perceive. Though, we do not have the same belief as Jesus did. I understand He was always told that He was God's son so He would always have naturally known His father that way, and this is a belief that we don't have.

A God does not have constraints and limits to what it can perceive. Jesus was able to read minds, hearts, and predict the future while he was a man. I wouldn't say he was limited in any means while he was on earth.

I still don't see how this answers my initial questions. That is, why Jesus prays, praises, and begs God if he is already God himself. These actions appear bizarre, unusual, and not God-like at all. Can you explain them and why they were necessary?

 

[alexiscurious]

I am curious now. What do you imagine He was afraid of? Is this in reference to His sweating blood and imploring for the cup to be taken from Him?

Yes.

I see no reason for an eternal being to be trembling in fear and sweating blood over death. If he knew his death would be temporary ahead of time, why did he beg the Father not to go through with it? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[oi_antz]

It is assumed his eternal nature was transferred over because he rose from the grave. If his eternal nature wasn't transferred over, he would have stayed dead.

Where did you get this information and how reliable is it?

A God does not have constraints and limits to what it can perceive. Jesus was able to read minds, hearts, and predict the future while he was a man. I wouldn't say he was limited in any means while he was on earth.

Why not? Would it undermine your position? I remember He was limited. He said not even He knows what hour The Father has appointed for the final trumpet.

I still don't see how this answers my initial questions. That is, why Jesus prays, praises, and begs God if he is already God himself. These actions appear bizarre, unusual, and not God-like at all. Can you explain them and why they were necessary?

I did, and you have not listened. Read it again and listen to what I said. Humans have a limited perception and rely on faith to access God's unlimited perception.

Yes.

I see no reason for an eternal being to be trembling in fear and sweating blood over death. If he knew his death would be temporary ahead of time, why did he beg the Father not to go through with it? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I would not wish for it to happen to anyone. Have you read the description of the way He was treated? Do you think He would not have noticed any indicative hatred and rumours that would inspire His imagination to fear?

I am sure by your statement here you have not really pictured what happened, and that makes me wonder why you are complaining.