Why do we need a choice?

[alexiscurious]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

 

[agua]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

Yahweh is the only God and what you're suggesting would require humans to also be God. ie. We are created in His image/likeness, but not Him.

 

[alexiscurious]

Yahweh is the only God and what you're suggesting would require humans to also be God. ie. We are created in His image/likeness, but not Him.

This wouldn't be the case for two reasons:
1) we would have a beginning, we would be not eternal, so we couldn't be God
2) God already exists so there can't be another

 

[ebia]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

You shouldn't absolutise verses like that. It's not how language works.
Both those verses (and others like them) are about God's consistency and promiss keeping, unlike the surrounding pagan "gods" who were fickle as a fickle thing. They aren't trying to say God is a block of concrete.

 

[Inkfingers]

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

Firstly, it's a matter of authority - God is the creator and we are the creation. The creator sets the standard, not the creation.

Secondly, it's a matter of capacity - only God can be perfect. We are finite and thus fallible beings who can never know everything and so can never be in a position to be the final arbiter of what is truly and absolutely good or evil in a situation (because we can never have all the variables). As such we are in no position to set the standard for the universe.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Alex, thank you for this topic, I do see that it can be a stimulating thing to think about. Please do keep in mind that both of these statements have been made by men who had faith in God, with Malachi appearing to be spoken by the prophet on behalf of God. That means that this prophet is responsible for the assumption we are making that God is perfect. In reality, we do not have any capacity to prove such a claim, even if He did wish to offer full cooperation.

However, it is an assumption which leads nonetheless to this sort of discussion, as an investigation into the nature of perfection, imperfection, good and evil, and conclusions about why nature is prone to failure.

Thus, the following comments are based on the total acceptance of the idea that God indeed is perfect.

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

Do you not think though that being perfect is better than being imperfect? If that is true, then it stands to reason that perfect wisdom would not allow the temptation to become imperfect, to be a reasonable choice to make. If you don't agree with these premises, please do explain why, and if you otherwise think I am wrong, again, please explain why. I would be grateful to be corrected.

So God has always loved good and hated evil.

It is entirely reasonable to assume so. There is ultimately no value in evil. Only an incomplete view of reality can produce a view of evil as being worthwhile. Again, I would be grateful to be corrected if I am wrong.

He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect.

* I think I have missed the logical progression to this conclusion, and I have looked for it. Would you mind explaining for me why you think He has never had the choice to be less than perfect and therefore holy? I am not able to find it by myself here.

And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

I assume He can only see no win and only loss if He was to do wrong, and so it would only be foolish. No wise person wishes to be foolish. Only a fool could think foolishness is a virtue.

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well?

I don't think He ever has been. Do you have information that suggests so? What I see about humans, is they cannot learn from just being told. It's pride, ego, curiosity, resentment etc. We simply desire to be our own master.

He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

I think this requires an answer to * above, because at this stage it seems to be based on a false assumption. It doesn't mean this question cannot lead to an interesting conclusion, but it is responsible for determining the direction this question should go. I will choose to wait instead of beginning speculation on lacking information.

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

There is no doubt in my mind that the bible will contain enough material to demonstrate consistency in it's claims. However, to arrive at that conclusion, both parties do need to be prepared to accept it. I am pretty certain that this is why atheist's keep leading discussions that end in that situation back to square one, and claiming circular logic.

 

[aiki]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

Why does God's unchanging nature necessarily mean He has "absolutely no control over His own attributes? "Absolutely" is a very strong word. As well, I wonder why change would be desirable in God's case? If He is perfect, which is what the Bible asserts about Him, any change would necessarily be toward imperfection. One cannot improve on perfection, right? The only change one can make to perfection is to diminish it in some way, which is what God would do were He to make a fundamental change to His nature. God's immutability, then, is a very positive thing, not a negative one.

Hebrews 13:8 is directly related to the verses which follow it:

Hebrews 13:9
9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

One commentator remarks:


"The argument here, therefore, for perseverance is founded on the immutability of the Redeemer. If he were fickle, vacillating, changing in his character and plans; if to-day he aids his people, and to-morrow will forsake them; if at one time he loves the virtuous, and at another equally loves the vicious; if he formed a plan yesterday which he has abandoned today; or if he is ever to be a different being from what he is now, there would be no encouragement to effort. Who would know what to depend on? Who would know what to expect tomorrow? For who could have any certainty that he could ever please a capricious or a vacillating being? Who could know how to shape his conduct if the principles of the Divine administration were not always the same? - Albert Barnes Notes on the New Testament Explanatory and Practical."

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

God's omniscience makes choosing in the way we do unnecessary. Choices that we face do not present to God in the same way as they do to us. God has always known all things. He has never been deceived, or confused about the truth and rightness of anything. God obtains no new knowledge; the knowledge we discover as humans has always been possessed by God. Consequently, trying to draw a parallel between God and ourselves in the matter of choice is to forget that God is far more unlike us than like us. And this is why, in part, choice is important for us when it is not, in certain respects, for God. Our limited, finite nature necessitates it.

Also, insofar as relating with God is concerned, free choice is vital. God desires a love-relationship with us. Love, however, if it is to be genuine love, cannot be constrained or forced. Our love, then, must be freely given; we must freely choose to love God. In this respect, our capacity to choose is very important.

Selah.

 

[98cwitr]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

Genesis 3 answers this directly:

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

In my mind, reading this, God wanted Man to have full knowledge of good and evil, as He does.

 

[bling]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when It can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do, the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction on the objective of man Love.

 

[Joshua260]

... God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable...So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect..

I think the source of confusion is originating from the idea that you kind of suggest, that "goodness" is something separate from God, and that God "possesses" that attribute while he could just as well not "possess" goodness. But I don't believe that's the Christian view. Rather, God's character is the standard of "goodness" to which everything else is measured. An example is the meter standard. What scientist do is measure a particular bar and say "the length of this bar represents the length of a meter" (BTW, that particular bar is actually referred to as a "standard").

...so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice? .

Because he loves his creation.

 

[graceandpeace]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

There is a certain context for these verses. Isolating them & turning them into "absolutes" or constraints for God is not the best approach.

 

[alexiscurious]

Do you not think though that being perfect is better than being imperfect? If that is true, then it stands to reason that perfect wisdom would not allow the temptation to become imperfect, to be a reasonable choice to make. If you don't agree with these premises, please do explain why, and if you otherwise think I am wrong, again, please explain why. I would be grateful to be corrected.

I agree. Nothing in my original post says anything that contradicts what was said here.

I think I have missed the logical progression to this conclusion, and I have looked for it. Would you mind explaining for me why you think He has never had the choice to be less than perfect and therefore holy? I am not able to find it by myself here.

Because these verses say he has been the same and will always be the same. So I can conclude that there was never any point in time where he was not holy and perfect (because if there was that means he would have changed).

I don't think He ever has been. Do you have information that suggests so? What I see about humans, is they cannot learn from just being told. It's pride, ego, curiosity, resentment etc. We simply desire to be our own master.

He was against it obviously, that is why he gave everyone the choice to do good or to do evil? Humanity has the choice to do good or evil. God does not. If the almighty supreme being of the universe doesn't need a choice, why do we? That is basically the main question this whole thread revolves around. And I have yet to hear an answer to this question.

 

[alexiscurious]

Firstly, it's a matter of authority - God is the creator and we are the creation. The creator sets the standard, not the creation.

I don't think I said anything to contradict this. I am only asking why he feels it necessary to give everyone else the choice between doing good or evil when God himself does not even have a choice.

Secondly, it's a matter of capacity - only God can be perfect. We are finite and thus fallible beings who can never know everything and so can never be in a position to be the final arbiter of what is truly and absolutely good or evil in a situation (because we can never have all the variables). As such we are in no position to set the standard for the universe.

Not sure what this has to do with the topic of the thread...

 

[Sketcher]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8 state that God is the same always and never ever changes. These verses indicate that God has absolutely no control over his own attributes, because they are eternal and unalterable. He has always and will always be the same forever and ever.

So God has always loved good and hated evil. He never had a choice to be anything but holy and perfect. And I assume he is content with being this way (who wouldn't?). This leads me to the weird questions that I will be asking in this thread:

So as a God who has spent eternity loving good and hating evil, why was he so against letting his creation experience this as well? He never had the opportunity to choose, so why does he feel the dire urgency for us to have a choice?

There is probably no biblical answer for this, so it's ok if you don't know. I look forward to some intelligent responses.

This presumes that because he does not change, that he has no choice to change. This does not logically follow.

 

[alexiscurious]

Why does God's unchanging nature necessarily mean He has "absolutely no control over His own attributes?

Well, the definition of unchanging or irreversible is: not able to be undone or altered. So how can he have control over something that cannot be undone or altered?

"Absolutely" is a very strong word. As well, I wonder why change would be desirable in God's case? If He is perfect, which is what the Bible asserts about Him, any change would necessarily be toward imperfection. One cannot improve on perfection, right? The only change one can make to perfection is to diminish it in some way, which is what God would do were He to make a fundamental change to His nature. God's immutability, then, is a very positive thing, not a negative one.

This is information that does not help answer my main question. I am only asking why he feels it necessary to give everyone else the choice between doing good or evil when God himself does not even have a choice.

God's omniscience makes choosing in the way we do unnecessary. Choices that we face do not present to God in the same way as they do to us. God has always known all things. He has never been deceived, or confused about the truth and rightness of anything. God obtains no new knowledge; the knowledge we discover as humans has always been possessed by God. Consequently, trying to draw a parallel between God and ourselves in the matter of choice is to forget that God is far more unlike us than like us. And this is why, in part, choice is important for us when it is not, in certain respects, for God. Our limited, finite nature necessitates it.

Also, insofar as relating with God is concerned, free choice is vital. God desires a love-relationship with us. Love, however, if it is to be genuine love, cannot be constrained or forced. Our love, then, must be freely given; we must freely choose to love God. In this respect, our capacity to choose is very important.

Selah.

So your answer to my question is choice is unnecessary for God but not for us. Hmm...

 

[alexiscurious]

This presumes that because he does not change, that he has no choice to change. This does not logically follow.

Well... that could be it. You've been able to say more in two sentences than people who wrote a few paragraphs.

Your response presumes that things that do not change still have the choice to change. Does this logically follow?

 

[alexiscurious]

A few people also said that I'm not interpreting the verses correctly.

 

[aiki]

I am only asking why he feels it necessary to give everyone else the choice between doing good or evil when God himself does not even have a choice.

It seems to me, as I indicated in my last post, that God's circumstance is unique. Along with being omniscient, He is transcendent and non-contingent, existing necessarily. This means, among other things, that God is outside of time, transcendent to it, and therefore does not experience change as we do. Change, you see, is a function of time. Thus, if time does not exist, change cannot occur. And this is the condition in which God exists. This may well be the sense in which the verses you cited refer to God's changelessness.

God cannot choose to do evil because His goodness is perfect and His perfect goodness is an essential attribute of His divine nature. If God is not perfectly good, He is not God. He would, then, either have to make us robots, programmed to always do right, or make us perfect in moral goodness as He is, in order to alleviate us of the choice between right and wrong, good and evil. But the former condition would prevent us from loving as God intends for us to love and the latter is impossible. God cannot make us perfectly good as He is because such perfection is found only in God. We would have to possess every other of God's perfections in order to possess His goodness perfectly. But this would entail, among other things, being non-contingent, which would require that we are without beginning, and that we were not made to be perfect by some other agency, but are that way necessarily and uncaused. But this would, then, necessarily preclude God from making us morally perfect.

Selah.

 

[Sketcher]

Well... that could be it. You've been able to say more in two sentences than people who wrote a few paragraphs.

Your response presumes that things that do not change still have the choice to change. Does this logically follow?

It presumes that people who do not change have the choice to change. God is considered a Person, three Persons of the same Being, specifically. I'm not going to conflate God with a rock or something. Rocks don't make choices. We know from the Bible that God has made choices. I am not privy to every choice he makes or 100% of why he makes his choices, but God is a chooser. How far that rabbit hole goes is something I will have to learn in Heaven.

 

[alexiscurious]

God cannot choose to do evil because His goodness is perfect and His perfect goodness is an essential attribute of His divine nature. If God is not perfectly good, He is not God.

Sounds good. You agree with me that God does not have the choice to be anything but good and perfect forever and ever.

He would, then, either have to make us robots, programmed to always do right, or make us perfect in moral goodness as He is, in order to alleviate us of the choice between right and wrong, good and evil.

But isn't that what he is? A robot programmed to always do right? Why can't I join the club? If he has no problem with being this way, then I surely don't.

But the former condition would prevent us from loving as God intends for us to love and the latter is impossible.

But he always does right and still provides us with love. Why can't we always do right and still provide him with love?

God cannot make us perfectly good as He is because such perfection is found only in God.

Eh? What about these verses? Everyone seems to have a different definition of what it means to be "perfect." Why are these biblical authors preaching that perfection is attainable?

Matthew 5:48-You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 1:4-And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

We would have to possess every other of God's perfections in order to possess His goodness perfectly. But this would entail, among other things, being non-contingent, which would require that we are without beginning, and that we were not made to be perfect by some other agency, but are that way necessarily and uncaused. But this would, then, necessarily preclude God from making us morally perfect.

I don't think we would have to possess every one of his perfections in order to always do right. I liked your other response better about how it is unnecessary for God to make choices the same way we do. Maybe that makes more sense. I don't know. My brain hurts.