Ok, I get what you are saying, but I don't think the words you have chosen to use actually mean what you intend to say. I am sure He has had the ability to choose, just that His choices have always been the ones He wanted to make. I remember actually that we have discussed this at length before. A, B, if x chose A then he could not have chosen B, therefore he did not really have a choice. I still think that is faulty logic. Some choices are very easy, others require careful consideration. Post #14 says the same thing more simply.
What makes you say that He doesn't have that choice, and even say it as though you are convinced it is true?
I think what you are getting at, to put into words which I will be able to agree with, is if the almighty supreme being of the universe can always make good choices, why can we not? If that is your question then I will be able to share an idea about this that you will probably find sense in.
Well done!
But this is not a restriction imposed upon Him by some external constraint. It is a consequence of His nature. Just as a circle has no right angles, God has no darkness in Him. THe moment a circle has a right angle it ceases to be a circle. Likewise, the moment God has sin in Him He ceases to be God.
God is, by definition, uncaused. No one and no thing made Him or programmed Him. He loves because it is His nature to love, not because He has been made to do so by some external agency. God then is not a robot programmed always to do right.
As I have tried to point out, as a created, sin-cursed being how and why you are able to love is necessarily different from how and why God loves. It is worth noting, though, that providing God with love is to do right. Where your love is expressed toward God by obedience to His commands, God's love is expressed as function of His own nature.
God has always been perfectly morally good. It is in respect to God having been always morally perfect that we cannot be like God. Yes, God can impart His perfect righteousness to us through His Spirit when we by faith accept His Son as our Saviour and Lord. But the non-contingent, eternal moral perfection of God is impossible for created creatures.
Oh? Is God good if He is unjust? Is God good if He is a liar? Can one be morally perfect and be a fool? Can one be morally perfect and be ignorant? I don't see how. God is only perfectly good if He is also perfectly just, and loving, and truthful and wise and so on; for these things are all aspects of goodness. God is also only truly perfectly good if He has never, ever been otherwise.
My other comments were coming at this same thing I write of above but from the particular angle of omniscience.
Ok. So this further proves my point that God does not have the choice to be anything but good and perfect forever and ever.
Ok.
So if we can never achieve his moral perfection, how will we ever stop this endless cycle of sinning when we get to heaven?
Hmm...guess you are only going to be in heaven a short while then, if we can never have eternal moral perfection.
Hmm...wise jedi master aiki seems to disagree with you:
So does x really have a choice?
Not really. More like: if the almighty supreme being of the universe has to always make good choices, why can we not?
What do they imply jedi knight oi antz?
Yes. Just like you and I have the choice to jump off a cliff. Normally we would not make that decision, since it's likely outcome conflicts with an ultimately stronger desire. However, we are capable of making that decision simply if we believe the likely outcome satisfies our most ultimate desire. Do you see this as contradicting what aiki has said, or do you see some fault in my belief about how we make choices?
I expect it is because we are not fully informed when we make decisions, however we can assume that God could very well be. Certainly if we go with the assumption that the universe was conceived and designed by Him, then He must have a sufficient vantage point of it to have sufficient information that He is able to always make good choices. However, humans have definite limits in their ability to perceive and envisage information, therefore the human will never be able to make a fully informed decision. As a result, the human's decision is always prone to error.
Imply that God is perfect, these verses do not. "I am who I am" is what they say. Accept Him as He is we must; because change to suit our preferences, He will not.
In your analogy, you have the freedom to jump off a cliff or not to jump off a cliff. You have the ability to freely exercise both options. This is what I would call a choice.
You & many others in this thread said we would need to be God in order to always make good choices. I don't think this is true. If I understand this correctly, heaven will be a place where moral perfection is possible for our kind. So this proves that it is possible for us to always make good choices without being God.
Funny.
I reckon that if this is true, then He must simply prefer good instead of evil. I even think everyone does, but that sometimes due to our limited perception, we are able to deceive ourselves into thinking that evil is not evil because the evil we do is actually good for us. In doing so, we are able to treat others in a way we would not like to be treated.
What makes you believe that? I don't see it as a necessary assumption yet, but only because I have not seen a good reason to believe it.
Actually, it depends on the reason why ice cream is not a choice. If the ice cream was in a place that meant it was physically impossible to put it in my mouth during my life, then I don't have the choice and you have been wrong to say that I do. I could choose to attempt to get it to my mouth, even if I was doomed to fail. However, if the ice cream was to cause a severe allergic reaction, then all it means is I must choose between the pleasure obtained by consuming the ice cream vs the displeasure of the consequences. So yes, I would have a choice. Which choice I make would depend probably on how strong my desire is for the pleasure and how strong my desire is to avoid the displeasure.
I didn't, but I did say there is always some risk of failing to make good choices due to our limited perception of, and ability to envisage, complete information. There is always the ability to fluke, but there is also a calculation involved. You must know that some problems are simple calculations while others are very complex. You ought to think carefully about this before you dismiss it, I feel that you owe it to yourself.
I am not as sure about that as you seem to be. Can you explain to me why you believe this?
I would like to know your answers to my PM, if you will
It just does not appear reasonable to believe this, even after all the arguments I have seen.
This is an interesting conclusion to express, and I am curious in light of what you have said, to know your understanding of the reason/s that we sometimes do not make good decisions?
It does seem to me that you have chosen to believe an idea so fervently that now you are forced to justify it, you are no longer discussing what is real. It must be amusing to be told so.
So moral perfection is possible for our kind. Now please explain to me why it couldn't have been this way from the beginning of our existence? I need to understand this. Keep in mind that God has always been morally perfect and he is still able to love freely.
It is clear God thinks differently.
You can though, if you want to. You only need to consider it and make sense of it. After understanding it, you will know if it is flawed, and if so, then you can describe to me why.
What, like you and I don't have a choice to jump off a cliff? I think you are using a different word than you should be. It is basic sensible decision. Wisdom. Foolishness. Choice is about options. Silly options are still options because they are possible.
I only know what I know about what the bible says about it. If you know of something in the bible that suggests I have not read it, please can you show it to me? I often do dismiss claims like this until I have seen proof of the reliability of those claims. Also, the bible does not immediately qualify a claim's reliability IMO. It depends who is making the statement and why I would consider them to be qualified to know.
I don't believe moral perfection is possible for our kind. I only believe total honesty is achievable. But, there is always going to be wrong done as long as our knowledge is incomplete. The distinction is that if we are honest, we would always choose to do right by others. That is willing morality. The bible says (Revelation) "there will be no more sorrow or death or pain", because none of us will choose to do that to each other.
