For Those of You Who Think Traditionalism is the Answer....

[Struggling Sinner]

I'm just wondering what you meant by many Latinos being 'low hanging fruit'? That's what you said, right?

The OP is "All about Catholicism losing Latinos--and why". That's why my response was about Latinos. Many Latinos are Catholic in name alone, this is a statistic as well as something that can be observed in my wife's family in the difference between the older and younger more secular generations. Someone who is Catholic in name alone is like a "low-hanging fruit" in that they are easy to pull away from the Church. My point was that because of this and the fact that the Church hasn't gone back to a pre-Vatican II liturgy it's ridiculous to suggest that them leaving is because of pre-Vatican II Catholic traditions. That's what I mean.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think his point is that American consumerism and secularism is detrimental to the spiritual life of all people
not that Latinos are specifically weak against this
it is that all people are weak against this
he just mentioned latinos because that was the topic of this thread

am I explaining this correctly Struggling Sinner?

 

[Struggling Sinner]

I think his point is that American consumerism and secularism is detrimental to the spiritual life of all people
not that Latinos are specifically weak against this
it is that all people are weak against this
he just mentioned latinos because that was the topic of this thread

am I explaining this correctly Struggling Sinner?

Exactly. I think the others were just trying to be argumentative or trying to mischaracterize me since it should have been obvious why I was talking about Latinos if they would have read the OP.

 

[Rhamiel]

to be fair, it was kind of hard to understand what you meant

you should be more charitable in what you assume about other people

sorry if I sound harsh, I mess up a lot too

 

[mark46]

Let me understand. Many Latinos are leaving the Church because the services have so little life (as they see it). They are used to South American (and African) services where there is more community, emotion and life.

Your solution is the services of the frozen chosen, the European approach to liturgy.

The US Church is certainly free to follow Europe and its downward trend.

And, of course, the Church is growing in South America, Asia and Africa.

hmmm. Perhaps, becoming more and more like Europe is not the best idea.

No, it is time to get out of our churches and reach out to the poor. It is time to welcome the poor and disadvantaged into our churches. BTW, I think that this is happening and will continue to happen.

If we cannot serve Latinos who love the Church, Mary, the Eucharist and the saints, we should be ready to accept the consequences of a Church getting older and older, smaller and smaller.

BTW, I live in a part of the world where we have one mass a day in Spanish and where one church had its Easter Vigil in Spanish. The Anglos in that Church did not have enough interest to have a Vigil in English. Make no mistake, our Church has many masses in English (5 each weekend). We recognize the importance of our Latino brothers and sisters.

 

[Rhamiel]

um, the parishes near me are not "cold and frozen"
they are hippy dippy
with guitar music, and protestant sounding sermons and people showing up in jeans and t-shirts for mass
and the bulk of the parishioners are aging baby boomers

the "traditional" parish, the latin mass
has lots of young families and lots of little kids

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm not Latino, so maybe the following is irrelevant, but I know that it was the Latin Mass that drew my attention from Orthodoxy. I think the Orthodox Liturgy is beautiful and feels proper, it just wasn't an option for us to become Orthodox because my wife didn't feel comfortable with it, I think the whole EO way of life was a little to alien for her.

The Catholic Church seemed to fit us both better, the Novus Ordo Mass at our parish wasn't too Protestant (at least not the one we went to - going is difficult because I work every Sunday). The choir was beautiful and elegant and accompanied by an organ which was something I hadn't personally heard in probably 20 years.

The draw for me personally though was that our parish still offers a Latin Mass. I haven't had the pleasure of going to it yet, but I have watched a few Latin Masses online (for what it's worth anyway) and it's absolutely sublime!

So I wouldn't say that Tradition is what's some demographics away from the Church per se. Maybe, like others have said, it's the allure of our American fast food Christian culture.

 

[Rhamiel]

anyways, the point I was trying to make earlier
the problem is not "Traditional vs. Modern"
both can be good
both can be bad

it is good when the people in the parish have a living faith in Christ
it is bad when the people do not have a living faith in Christ

Jesus is the answer

 

[Gnarwhal]

anyways, the point I was trying to make earlier
the problem is not "Traditional vs. Modern"
both can be good
both can be bad

it is good when the people in the parish have a living faith in Christ
it is bad when the people do not have a living faith in Christ

Jesus is the answer

Agreed.

I think there can be a healthy balance of both, and there should. I like the idea of the Latin Mass because it keeps the Church in touch with it's roots, and the Novus Ordo because it connects with people in the twenty-first century.

That's just thoughts from an outsider though...

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

How should we teach young people so that they both remain in the faith and develop the critical thinking skills they need? How do we share the Good News in a way thst sticks without shielding them from science and history?

Sometimes I get the feeling you post hyperbole and rhetorical questions just for the sake of posting hyperbole and rhetorical questions.

More studies of the Bible and Catechism = disregard for science and history? Because religion studies should entail the study of the mole unit and the battle of Trafalgar.

...

How about going over what Genesis could imply (Literal vs. Figurative), the Old Covenant vs. the New, why so many Bibles have discrepancies, what some Bible passages actually mean (Which means going over some chapters that they don't get shellshocked when something is taken out of context), the importance of both understanding tradition and the Bible, why certain Church teachings CAN NOT change (How many times are we going to see people dance around the issue of wanting to change dogma?) as well as pointing out that the Catechism is a blueprint to what it asks of the faithful.

I don't think that's asking too much when it comes to teach...religion, a subject these Catholic school do. Go over that, then schools can contemplate about giving a reading assignment that may consist of Tom Brown Jr.'s The Vision.

 

[mark46]

I understand that many want "traditional" masses and parishes. Of course, as has been the case throughout history, this merely means the church of their childhood. Fond childhood memories will not bring back overflowing churches with the Latin Mass.

With regard to this thread, I think that Latinos are at least as likely to leave what you call "traditional" parishes than they are likely to leave parishes that actually accept and embrace the Church's teachings since Vatican II. The changes were made in Council and by several popes. How are we following the direction of the Church by trying to go back before Vatican II?

um, the parishes near me are not "cold and frozen"
they are hippy dippy
with guitar music, and protestant sounding sermons and people showing up in jeans and t-shirts for mass
and the bulk of the parishioners are aging baby boomers

the "traditional" parish, the latin mass
has lots of young families and lots of little kids

 

[Rhamiel]

I understand that many want "traditional" masses and parishes. Of course, as has been the case throughout history, this merely means the church of their childhood. Fond childhood memories will not bring back overflowing churches with the Latin Mass.

With regard to this thread, I think that Latinos are at least as likely to leave what you call "traditional" parishes than they are likely to leave parishes that actually accept and embrace the Church's teachings since Vatican II. The changes were made in Council and by several popes. How are we following the direction of the Church by trying to go back before Vatican II?

the church of my childhood?
I am 27... Latin mass is not the church of my childhood
the church of my childhood was ugly buildings that looked like they belonged in an episode of the Bradey Bunch, modern art looking stained glass windows, what used to dipict the life of Christ and His Saints now nothing more then interesting geometric patterns and soothing colors. hippy dippy guitar music and milktoast sermons

anyways, nothing I have said came from Vatican II
VII did not say do away with beautiful art
VII did not say get out guitars and play folk songs
VII did not say have milktoast sermons

What I like about the Church that has Latin Mass is everything but the Latin
truth be told i can take it or leave it
here is what I like
it is the solemnity that goes allong with the Mass
the sense of respect and sacredness
the explicitly Catholic identity

and none of those things go agianst Vatican II

 

[Gnarwhal]

I understand that many want "traditional" masses and parishes. Of course, as has been the case throughout history, this merely means the church of their childhood. Fond childhood memories will not bring back overflowing churches with the Latin Mass.

You're probably right in that many people who say they want to maintain a traditional Mass mean that they want an entirely archaic church experience.

For me personally, I don't have a Catholic background in the slightest but the Latin Mass imparts a sense of ethereal timelessness the same way that the Orthodox Divine Liturgy does, IMHO.

With regard to this thread, I think that Latinos are at least as likely to leave what you call "traditional" parishes than they are likely to leave parishes that actually accept and embrace the Church's teachings since Vatican II. The changes were made in Council and by several popes. How are we following the direction of the Church by trying to go back before Vatican II?

I can see that as being true. Do you think maybe their leaving the Catholic Church has more to do with social and material aspects than anything theological or ecclesiastical?

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

Sometimes I get the feeling you post hyperbole and rhetorical questions just for the sake of posting hyperbole and rhetorical questions.

More studies of the Bible and Catechism = disregard for science and history? Because religion studies should entail the study of the mole unit and the battle of Trafalgar.

...

How about going over what Genesis could imply (Literal vs. Figurative), the Old Covenant vs. the New, why so many Bibles have discrepancies, what some Bible passages actually mean (Which means going over some chapters that they don't get shellshocked when something is taken out of context), the importance of both understanding tradition and the Bible, why certain Church teachings CAN NOT change (How many times are we going to see people dance around the issue of wanting to change dogma?) as well as pointing out that the Catechism is a blueprint to what it asks of the faithful.

I don't think that's asking too much when it comes to teach...religion, a subject these Catholic school do. Go over that, then schools can contemplate about giving a reading assignment that may consist of Tom Brown Jr.'s The Vision.

I went to Catholic school, and that sounds a lot like the curriculum I had in high school. My sons are in Catholic school, but they are a bit young to tell.

And to your first point, I post because I'd really like to understand...understand why it's so hard for me to keep the faith, so to speak, find a path to belief, and somehow manage to raise my kids up with more faith than I've ever had.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I think that is the curriculum they tried to give us in high school, but our particular religion teacher spoke so far over our heads that most of us simply didn't understand what the heck he was talking about.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

Internet Monk has an interesting article today: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/41068/comment-page-1#comment-708836

 

[stone]

Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

They are not encountering God. They are lost and they are being fooled. They like to talk about discernment for everything but themselves.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Internet Monk has an interesting article today: So, How’s the Catholic Church Really Doing? | internetmonk.com

LOL, that's awesome.

They are not encountering God. They are lost and they are being fooled. They like to talk about discernment for everything but themselves.

Very true. So many buzzwords in Evangelicalism...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Saw this article posted on FB--it's from Latino Fox News, and if I didn't see it on FB I never would have seen it (even Anglo Fox News is more than I can deal with most of the time...)

All about Catholicism losing Latinos--and why.



Read more: Switching Sides: Latinos Ditching Catholicism For Evangelical Churches | Fox News Latino

Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

If they are anything like most - myself included - they are clueless.
Sorry to say.
I know from whence i have come - ie -0 been there - and had no idea how insane i was to avoid Church for 7 years.

They'll be back - the Eucharist will call them. It happens - frequently.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A few things....

First of all, it's not a popularity contest. What if I were to tell you that a giant bounce house Mass would attract ten times more parishioners? We could worship while bouncing up and down. The kiddies would love it! The parents might like it! But is it what the Lord deserves? We could have dress up days and all come dressed like our favorite Beatle to Mass. I'm sure loons from all over would eat it up. But is it reverent and does the Lord deserve trendy hipster attempts at popularity and filling bums in pews?

Vatican II, which I'm not really much of a fan of, was put on steroids by many left-leaning priests and interpreted in a far more broad way than intended. Many if not most credible bishops and cardinals say this all the time. The spirit was overtaken by those with no sense of boundaries and appropriateness.

The Latin Mass, as another poster appropriately pointed out is NOT about the Latin! Personally, I like some of the Latin responses, but would prefer English. What do I like?

The priest facing the altar rather than the people
Incense
Communion on the tongue
No happy-clappy Baptisty stuff
no hand-holding
no massive presence of extraordinary ministers trying to bless my kids
solemnity
piety
beauty

This could be accomplished with English. It's not just the language, it's the whole holistic experience of it that I think most 'traditionalists' hunger for. And like I said, it's not a popularity contest. It's about doing what some feel is what God deserves. So why not allow more traditional expressions?

Another interesting thing to note is that Latin Masses often, depending on the location and peculiarities of the parishioners, can be PACKED! Some Latin Masses are packed to the door with people hungering for the piety of the Tridentine form. I hear that a lot from friends in "real" time and online. There is one up in Fresno that people really get excited about!

I understand that many want "traditional" masses and parishes. Of course, as has been the case throughout history, this merely means the church of their childhood. Fond childhood memories will not bring back overflowing churches with the Latin Mass.

With regard to this thread, I think that Latinos are at least as likely to leave what you call "traditional" parishes than they are likely to leave parishes that actually accept and embrace the Church's teachings since Vatican II. The changes were made in Council and by several popes. How are we following the direction of the Church by trying to go back before Vatican II?