For Those of You Who Think Traditionalism is the Answer....

Sarcalogos Deus

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There is one parish in my town that offers traditional and more contemporary Mass settings, both are well attended.

But neither of them would provide the "freedom" that the person talked about in the article as the Mass itself simply makes that impossible. You can use more up to date songs, but I doubt we'll ever see Evangelical style praise and worship bands at a Mass.
 
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Gnarwhal

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if you could find that podcast, well that would be awesome

Found it! Sorry it's not a direct/downloadable link, but I'm pretty sure this is the podcast I was listening to. I may have been a bit off in my recollection of the topic, as their discussion was more specific to people seeking out a more transcendent form of worship in Catholicism or Orthodoxy, etc but if I remember right the way their discussion ultimately went was that "people are seeking out more transcendent worship but maintaining their protestant doctrines".

WHI-1102 | The Worship Experience - White Horse Inn Blog

I'd take their theory farther and say that people are leaving Evangelicalism altogether for something with actual substance. I've spoken with a number of people over the last couple of years who were former Evangelicals but now attend Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran or Anglican parishes and their reasons for leaving Evangelicalism were all more or less the same: over the last decade the Evangelical style of church had devolved into a side show.

You will always see God in a seedy pub. But most people fail to recognize Him.

Yeah, that's a good point.


The pendulum swings both ways.

I was raised fundamentalist. Converted to Catholicism and became a "liturgy" worshiper. Didn't like the unstructured style of evangelicals. Now I've mellowed and can see the good points and bad points in both styles.

I don't find either to be inherently superior to the other. They appeal to different people based on culture, personality, and familiarity.

That's not to say there's no objective truth though, right? I mean I'm still having trouble seeing the merit in Evangelicalism because of the horribly flawed theology... that's me though.
 
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JoshuaCh1v9

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This one is a bit too 'internal' for me, as a non catholic, to contribute too, but I wanted to make one point.

The article says that Latino people are finding Catholic Mass to be too restrictive, yet, before the election of the new Pope, I read that there was strong support for a South American Pope because 40% of the worlds Catholics live in Latin America.

Which suggests to me that the problem is not all that big among Latino people really.
 
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MKJ

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Such as? And who gets to decide that? If something wildly inappropriate was going on the bishop would get involved, right? I think singing The Our Father is inappropriate, but ultimately I don't get to decide that.

Presumably the primary responsibility is with the bodies who are in charge of liturgy.

One of the things they look at is how the liturgy has been done historically. Given that The Lords Prayer, along with the rest of the ordinary of the mass, has been sung through much of the history of the Church, they are unlikely to decide it should not be sung.
 
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Fantine

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I think that there needs to be recognition that parishes are no longer composed of homogeneous, cohesive groups of people and that we live in a mobile society of ethnically and religiously diverse people and in a culture where traditional religious values are not supported.

Churches that understand what the word "ministry" is about will recognize all these factors and take decisive action to address each of these issues.

The fact that Hispanics are switching to evangelical churches underscores it--people don't worship in a vacuum, and liturgies aren't one size fits all...

A liturgy that liturgists "assume" God prefers (the God who created thousands of planets and universes far beyond the view of our strongest telescopes and the reach of our space ships) that drives people away is a poorly designed liturgy.

I am convinced that God has far more eclectic tastes than we can even imagine--and as long as sincerity is part of the mix, He likes it all.
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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I think that there needs to be recognition that parishes are no longer composed of homogeneous, cohesive groups of people and that we live in a mobile society of ethnically and religiously diverse people and in a culture where traditional religious values are not supported.

Churches that understand what the word "ministry" is about will recognize all these factors and take decisive action to address each of these issues.

The fact that Hispanics are switching to evangelical churches underscores it--people don't worship in a vacuum, and liturgies aren't one size fits all...

A liturgy that liturgists "assume" God prefers (the God who created thousands of planets and universes far beyond the view of our strongest telescopes and the reach of our space ships) that drives people away is a poorly designed liturgy.

I am convinced that God has far more eclectic tastes than we can even imagine--and as long as sincerity is part of the mix, He likes it all.

You had one good point and one bad point in there. Yes we do need more focus on ministries outside of Mass, and luckily that seems to be a problem that is actually being worked on with some intensity.

But your second point, about an eclectic congregation needing an eclectic liturgy, is actually counter-intuitive.

Diverse liturgies (or more accurately liturgical customs), would really only work in ethnically homogeneous congregations. A parish almost entirely composed of Latinos isn't going to have hardly anyone that's uncomfortable with outbursts of passion. Nor is a parish of African immigrants going to have many that are uncomfortable with the hop-clap singing so many of them do (don't know what it's called).

The one size fits all Western European Mass style is precisely what would have the best chance of working in a diverse parish as that is the standard that has been imposed everywhere the Catholic Church has ever evangelized. It is the default that makes no Catholic uncomfortable.

We need a standard, like we have in the Novus Ordo, that can be tweaked according to need. What we definitely don't need is the liturgical chaos and anarchy you seem to be advocating.
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?

Rarely, I've only seen it done once and that was a special occasion "test run".
 
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Gwendolyn

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I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?

No, never. No translations have ever been approved or put into use.

Pope Pius XII thought very seriously about doing just that, but... then the war happened and he had other problems.
 
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Tallguy88

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Cogent said:
Found it! Sorry it's not a direct/downloadable link, but I'm pretty sure this is the podcast I was listening to. I may have been a bit off in my recollection of the topic, as their discussion was more specific to people seeking out a more transcendent form of worship in Catholicism or Orthodoxy, etc but if I remember right the way their discussion ultimately went was that "people are seeking out more transcendent worship but maintaining their protestant doctrines".

WHI-1102 | The Worship Experience - White Horse Inn Blog

I'd take their theory farther and say that people are leaving Evangelicalism altogether for something with actual substance. I've spoken with a number of people over the last couple of years who were former Evangelicals but now attend Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran or Anglican parishes and their reasons for leaving Evangelicalism were all more or less the same: over the last decade the Evangelical style of church had devolved into a side show.

Yeah, that's a good point.

That's not to say there's no objective truth though, right? I mean I'm still having trouble seeing the merit in Evangelicalism because of the horribly flawed theology... that's me though.

Objective truth is that the Eucharist is what make Mass inherently Mass. But there are contemporary evangelical-style Anglicans who celebrate the Eucharist every service as well. So, in that sense, a contemporary service could be a Mass too.
 
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Tallguy88

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seashale76 said:
I have an odd question- which likely shows my ignorance of Catholic liturgy. Is the Tridentine/Extraordinary form ever performed in English or the language of the people?

I've seen Anglicans do English Tridentine Masses, but not the Catholic Chuch.
 
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Wolseley

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I think that there needs to be recognition that parishes are no longer composed of homogeneous, cohesive groups of people and that we live in a mobile society of ethnically and religiously diverse people and in a culture where traditional religious values are not supported.

All the more reason for us to try as much as we can to be "one" instead of a plethora of "differents".

One of the good things about the pre-Vatican II Church was the stability; you could walk into any Catholic church anywhere in the world, be it Notre Dame in Paris, St. Peter's in Rome, a mission chapel in Zamboanga, or St. Wilfred's in the Outer Hebrides, and the Mass was going to be the same, every time.

The fact that Hispanics are switching to evangelical churches underscores it--people don't worship in a vacuum, and liturgies aren't one size fits all...

I know a guy who used to live in Mexico, and he travelled around Central and South America a lot in the course of his business. He told me that sure, a lot of Catholics would show up at Evangelical services. Why? Because the Evangelicals would always hand out free food and free clothing. But to get married, be buried, be baptized, etc., where did they go? Straight back to their local Catholic parish. He said it wasn't unusual to see them going to the 9:30 AM Mass, and then showing up at the 11:00 Evangelical service for the goodies afterwards. And who could blame them? They were poor, and this stuff was free.

So I have reservations about how many Latino Catholics are actually "switching sides" in reality.

A liturgy that liturgists "assume" God prefers (the God who created thousands of planets and universes far beyond the view of our strongest telescopes and the reach of our space ships) that drives people away is a poorly designed liturgy.

If the approved Catholic liturgy promulgated by the Vatican drives people away, I submit the problem is with the people, not the liturgy or the Vatican.

I am convinced that God has far more eclectic tastes than we can even imagine--and as long as sincerity is part of the mix, He likes it all.

I would counsel caution with that viewpoint. More damage has been done to people out of "sincerity" than you can shake a stick at.
 
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Winter

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Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

It may be the "mindset" that immigrants have when they come to America. America is the new world and everything is new. Everything is better (supposedly). They trust the American way. Evangelical churches are very much part of American culture - more so than other parts of the world. They shed their old traditions - and adopt American ones thinking its better, including religion, which again, includes the evangelical world.

It reminds me of my mother who immigrated to America decades ago. Her neighbors chastised her for baking her own bread. They told her that was the "old way" and noone in their right mind does this anymore. Modern people buy bread at the store. Store bought was the "new" way. She trusted American ways and thought Americans knew better compared to her country where there was poverty and ignorance.

Little did she know that baking bread at home was the best thing she could have done ...
 
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Winter

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On a separate note I remember having a Peruvian friend who was a Baptist. She was baptised Baptist and attended a Baptist church when she immigrated to America. She was Catholic in Peru. The strange thing is that she still prayed (asked )to saints and Mary. She told me that it was familiar to her, part of her culture. Something she still believed in. So I wonder how many immigrants truly give up all elements of their belief.
 
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CMatt25

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That might be part of it, but I do not think it is the whole reason.

You can tell people all you like what the Eucharist is supposed to be, but if they do not experience the effects of that they may well not believe you.

If the Eucharist is what the Church claims, the faith community should, at least much of the time, be evidence of the effectuality of that. If it is really what they claim, the community should be bound together in practice as well as in some abstract way, and it should be showing the fruits of being one in Christ.

Those who have experienced that in their faith community may be able to manage when they come to a place where that is lacking, because they know it is possible. They may be able to work to improve the situation if others are willing and they get some support.

But those who have not experienced that in their parish community may begin to wonder why the parish down the road, be it evangelical or Orthodox or something else, seems to be showing the results of life in Christ more than their own community. And even those who have had it before will eventually give up if they get no support or interest from others.

It is not just about what is said or taught - there are truth claims all over the place. If people see no evidence of those claims, they will eventually dismiss them as so much hot air.

I think you make a valid point as it always amazes me when I see Catholics right away blaming improper catechism. When in fact people can be taught, told, and properly catechized. But they still have to believe it.
 
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ZaidaBoBaida

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I think you make a valid point as it always amazes me when I see Catholics right away blaming improper catechism. When in fact people can be taught, told, and properly catechized. But they still have to believe it.

Catholics also tend to act like certain things have to happen at a certain age/time.

Confession in 2nd grade
Communion in 3rd
(though my class did those two things in reverse)
Confirmation in 9th grade

I remember when my cousin was going through confirmation classes, he told me he wasn't sure he believed some of the stuff in his little workbook he had. I said, "Well, why not put it off a few years? I'm sure God doesn't want you to lie. Who do you fear more God or Grandma?" Being not stupid, he decided he feared Grandma more, and went through with it. But, he hasn't darkened the doors of a church in years. I often wonder if he had been allowed to take his time, and if that workbook hadn't been so cheesy - if he might have continued in the faith.
 
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Brooklyn Knight

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I think you make a valid point as it always amazes me when I see Catholics right away blaming improper catechism. When in fact people can be taught, told, and properly catechized. But they still have to believe it.

I went to a Catholic grammar school and Catholic private high school. You know how many times we read from the Bible? How many times we read from the Catechism?

Oh, we did learn our prayers, Beatitudes, saints, sacraments, but, really getting down to the meat and potatoes? If you consider the differences in other religions and what their main focal points are that, then sure.

You get a young Catholic like that and throw in the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and it's game over for that Catholic.
 
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Wolseley

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I went to a Catholic grammar school and Catholic private high school. You know how many times we read from the Bible? How many times we read from the Catechism?

Oh, we did learn our prayers, Beatitudes, saints, sacraments, but, really getting down to the meat and potatoes? If you consider the differences in other religions and what their main focal points are that, then sure.

You get a young Catholic like that and throw in the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and it's game over for that Catholic.

Catechesis class, circa 1974:

"All you need to know is that God is your buddy, and if you feel good about yourself, you're okay. Let's all make a banner for Earth Day!"
 
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Winter

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Catechesis class, circa 1974:

"All you need to know is that God is your buddy, and if you feel good about yourself, you're okay. Let's all make a banner for Earth Day!"

Oh, that is so 1970s.

Reminds me of the music back then. Churches ditched the organs for guitar sounding kumbaya music. Good Lord. Thankfully that's gone and traditional organs and pianos are used.

Didn't mean to change the subject. :sorry: Resume, all.
 
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TheOtherHockeyMom

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I went to a Catholic grammar school and Catholic private high school. You know how many times we read from the Bible? How many times we read from the Catechism?

Oh, we did learn our prayers, Beatitudes, saints, sacraments, but, really getting down to the meat and potatoes? If you consider the differences in other religions and what their main focal points are that, then sure.

You get a young Catholic like that and throw in the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and it's game over for that Catholic.

How should we teach young people so that they both remain in the faith and develop the critical thinking skills they need? How do we share the Good News in a way thst sticks without shielding them from science and history?
 
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