Creation and exegesis

Papias

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The tablet idea, like many ideas, sounds good when you listen only to those who already support it. It was introduced in 1936 by one person, and never got much support beyond Wiseman, his son, and one scholar active decades ago. It doesn't appear to have any significant support among Bible scholars today. The tablet idea is rejected by conservative Bible scholars among them, as shown here.

An Introduction to the Old Testament Pentateuch - Herbert Wolf - Google Books


With that history, I don't think it helps our witness to mention wiseman's tablet pet idea.

As to the flat earth, muzic is right that there are many Bible verses that suggest a flat disk, and zero that suggest a sphere. There are also many that clearly describe the sky as a hard dome. I can post a list if anyone would like.

Papias
 
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themuzicman

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The Israelites already were familiar with their history. They already were at odds with mythological cosmologies. Do you not realize the Godly patriarch Joseph was barely a couple generations removed from them? The elders at that time, had parents that likely knew Joseph.

It's this kind of silliness that just wants to make me roll my eyes and walk away, since you don't even put a little bit of critical thought into your claims.

The Israelites were in slavery for 400 years. That's not "barely a couple of generations." That's more like 15-20 generations. 400 years is about how long ago the first European settlers came and settled at Plymouth Rock. Honestly, that's about 10% of the time that has passed since Moses was on the earth. 20% of the time since Christ.

It's not an insignificant amount of time.

Sorry, but I just don't have time or energy to unravel all of this silliness.
 
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Assyrian

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Which also fits perfectly as a subscript. Naoh's sons would have been the perfect account givers for all the events from Gen. 6:9b.
Since toledoth doesn't mean eyewitness account, it has nothing to do with how suitable they are as witnesses. To be perfectly suited for a toledoth, they don't even need to be alive at the time it was written, they just need to have descendants.

You'll also find, that genealogies (not to be confused with toledoth) often appear at the front or near the front of accounts. So it's no surprise to me that in multiple toledoth that are strung together you'd have subscripts directly followed by genealogies in the following toledoth.
Toledoth isn't confused with genealogies, that is its basic meaning. It is not just a chance association, each time we read the standard 'these are the generations of JoeBloggs', it is followed by a list of JoeBloggs' children and descendant or an account of how his children were born. What we see with Wiseman's theory is just the sort of chance association you were talking about. Of course as long as Genesis traces the origin of Israel you are going to get passages related to the person above their toledoth too. The way to test if that is a coincidence or the real meaning of toledoth is the times when Genesis leaves the story of Israel and gives the genealogies of their cousins. Each time this happens Wiseman's meaning of toledoth breaks down.

Gen 25:12 These are the generations of Ishmael is preceded by an account of Abraham's other wives and children and his death. Why would Ishmael have this story? Abraham kicked him and his mother out. It was Isaac who lived at home. But the generation of Ishmael is followed by the list of the descendants of Ishmael. Right after the list of Ishmael's descendants we read Gen 25:19 These are the generations of Isaac. Was the editor confused and wrote 'these are the generations of Isaac' as a subscript to Ishmael's children? Or was he talking about the account of Isaac's children being born that follows the generations of Isaac?

It is the same with Gen 36:1 These are the generations of Esau. The chapter before is all about Jacob, but it is followed by a whole chapter listing Esau's descendants. Yet if Wiseman is to be believed this chapter about Esau's descendants has the subscript Gen 37:2 These are the generations of Jacob. This isn't followed by a genealogical list but it is followed by the story of Jacob's children and how Joseph fell foul of his brothers.

Interestingly, the generations of Esau comes in two parts. Gen 36:1 These are the generations of Esau is followed by a list of the children born to his wives while he lived in Canaan and tells how they then moved to the hill country of Seir which became known as Edom. We then have Gen 36:9 These are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in the hill country of Seir. It recaps the names of Esau's sons and goes on to give all the descendants in their new home in the hill country of Seir.

Gen. 6:9 This is the account of Noah.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.
Gee, I don't see any list of descendants there.
...Gen 6:10 And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Gen. 11:27 This is the account of Terah.

Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot. 28 While his father Terah was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldeans, in the land of his birth.​
Hmmm. This one doesn't have a genealogy either, just the mention of Terah's sons that then a narrative.
But it does tell you Terah's sons and his grandson Lot. Toledoth can be longer and cover multiple generation but the basic meaning is birth and comes from yalad to beget.

Gen. 25:19 This is the account of Abraham’s son Isaac.

Abraham became the father of Isaac, 20 and Isaac was forty years old when he married Rebekah daughter of Bethuel the Aramean from Paddan Aram and sister of Laban the Aramean.​
And no genealogy here either. Just the mention of only one of Abraham's sons and his age at the time he married followed by a narrative. So far your claim isn't bearing on the evidence.
...Gen 25:21 And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 The children struggled together within her, and she said, "If it is thus, why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."
24 When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 The first came out red, all his body like a hairy cloak, so they called his name Esau.
26 Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.


Seems pretty appropriate to me.
Gen. 37:2 This is the account of Jacob.
Joseph, a young man of seventeen, was tending the flocks with his brothers, the sons of Bilhah and the sons of Zilpah, his father’s wives, and he brought their father a bad report about them.​
And strike 4. No genealogy here either. All that follows is a narrative of Joseph's life, many of the details of which, Jacob didn't have access to.
It just tells the story of Jacob's children. Clearly toledoth is broader than a who begot whom genealogy and can include narratives of how the children were born or the narrative of the children, but each time the toledoth, a descent or birth, deals with the children the person named, down many generation or one, as a genealogical list or as a narrative, but it is always about their children. With Wiseman, any time it is possible for the the use not to fit his ideas, it doesn't.

And then when you apply the fact that genealogies are lists of ancestors and not descendants actually none of them work. If I told you I wanted you to take a look at my genealogy, what would expect to see? A tree of my ancestors? Or a tree of my descendants?
You are assuming genealogies have to follow the conventions we use in English where we normally label genealogies after the descendant rather than the ancestor. How do you know that was the labelling system used in Hebrew? You probably haven't got to it yet, but I did mention Ruth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Perez, which is preceded by the story of Ruth which Perez Judah's son was in no position to know, but is followed by a list of Perez's descendants down to David. The fact that all of the these are the generation of JoeBloggs are followed by lists of Joe's descendants or the stories of his children shows us the Hebrew convention for naming genealogies was very different.

Case closed.
Indeed Wiseman's claim fail every time they they weren't able to work just by chance.

It appears you've gone from the toledoth being "about" the named individual which didn't work out, to a "genealogy" of the named individual, which also doesn't work out. Either you need a new theory or come on board with me on this one.
No I was saying if you have a text that is about someone, the genealogy will be named after them whether it is a list of ancestors or a list of the person's descendants. Matthew names his list of descent ending in Jesus 'the book of the generation of Jesus', where as in the Da Vinci Code (^_^) the line of Jesus' descendants is named after him, Jesus' bloodline. But you are right about one thing, I am still learning and studying the topic. While Matthew used the Greek genesis, generation to describe Jesus' ancestry, Toledoth in the phrase 'these are the generation of' is used consistently to describe someone's children or descendants. In places like Numbers it is used in the form 'by their generations' can be used to refer backwards to people's ancestry and being recorded according to their lineage Num 1:22 AV And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers. It is also used for order of birth Exodus 28:9 You shall take two onyx stones, and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel, 10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, in the order of their birth, though this may come from their order in the genealogy. It is never used to describe an account written or owned by someone.

But this truly has been part of the stumbling block of the toledoth for so long. Traditional structures just don't seem to work. But when we realize toledoth is not a term for genealogies all all, and that these are concluding remarks (per ancient structures) rather than introductory remarks (per less ancient structures), suddenly all the problems disappear. A toledoth could start with a genealogy, or it could start with a narrative. No more confusion.
Apart from all the places Wiseman's idea doesn't work.

Now Wiseman, to his credit, put forth this hypothesis that toledoth did not mean genealogies, but rather accounts, chronicles, histories, records, etc. And at the time he actually received very broad support from scholars. They are listed in his book (which I linked a few posts back). And in fact most modern dictionaries will affirm those translation options.

For instance, KM Hebrew Dictionary: account, record, genealogy, family line.

Strongs also lists history within its range of meanings.

But I don't think the translation generations ever works, frankly, in Genesis. Nor does genealogy. A genealogy can be in a toledoth, but a toledoth is not a genealogy.

As you can see in the examples above, most of the primary toledoth in Genesis are not followed by genealogies. (Unless of course you're going to change the definition of a genealogy, but hopefully you wont go there)
I wouldn't have a problem with account or record as a broader meaning of toledoth, though each time these are the generation of is used it is followed either by the genealogical list of their descendants or an account of their children. An account is certainly the broader meaning in Gen 2:4, (unless you want to read evolutionary meaning into the toledoth :)). That is the only place his idea of toledoth as a colophon or subscript is the best reading of the text. Worse still is his idea that toledoth is an account written by the named person or owned by them rather than an account of that person, or more simply their genealogy.

But what does work in every case (as Wiseman to his credit pointed out) is the author/owner theory. In every case it works out perfectly. All the named author/owners were either eyewitnesses to their account, or had access to eyewitnesses to their account. Adam was a contemporary to the events in his toledoth. Noah was a contemporary to the events in his. Shem, Ham and Japheth were contemporaries to all the events in there toledoth. Now in their case, we don't know which particular sections they each recorded. Seems more likely Japheth or Shem handled the part regarding Ham's sin. Regardless, Shem would have been a perfect account giver of the Table of Nations and Babel accounts, given is long lifespan after the Flood. And both Isaac and Jacob would have had access to direct witnesses of all the events in their toledoth.
That is simply an artefact of the long lifespans in Genesis where you want to claim authorship, or that people mentioned further down the text in Genesis usually lived later so you can always say they could have got their hands on earlier documents. But there is simply no basis for the claim that this is what toledoth means.

Now the only question is, why is there no toledoth subscript for Joseph? Wiseman had his own theories, but I think the simple answer may be, writing structures were different in Egypt. They may have used different methods and employed different structures. Scholars have noticed some egyptian attributes in this particular section, and I think it simply was a case in which there was no subscript included, and therefore Moses simply didn't know who the author was.

The Bible covers a great deal of time and therefore we should expect to see structural changes as we progress through the book.
Or there could be more documents and sections of documents making up Genesis than the ones marked by toledoth, or the Joseph section. Even if Wiseman were right, you would only get a colophon or subscript included if the whole document all the way down to the end was inserted in a particular place. If the editor chose part of a document that covered the area he was dealing with there, then the subscript would be left out.
 
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Calminian

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It's this kind of silliness that just wants to make me roll my eyes and walk away, since you don't even put a little bit of critical thought into your claims.

The Israelites were in slavery for 400 years. That's not "barely a couple of generations." That's more like 15-20 generations. 400 years is about how long ago the first European settlers came and settled at Plymouth Rock. Honestly, that's about 10% of the time that has passed since Moses was on the earth. 20% of the time since Christ.

It's not an insignificant amount of time.

Sorry, but I just don't have time or energy to unravel all of this silliness.

Now I appreciate confidence, but arrogance mixed with ignorance is never a good combo.

No, MM, the Israelites were not enslaved 400 years. Oy! How do people argue so passionately about a book they're so unfamiliar with?

Seriously, read the book of Genesis. Find some timeline charts perhaps. Study a little. Then come back and make your case.

Okay, so you actually think Moses and Joseph were separated by 400 years. Where to begin.

Just some tidbits of information. 1) The prophesy was not about the Israelites but Abraham's descendants starting with Isaac. Last I check neither he nor Jacob were enslaved. 2) The prophesy was a foretelling of wandering + slavery. 3) Jospeh died just 144 years before the Exodus. 4) And Moses was born just 64 years after Joseph died. (Uh, yeah, maybe walking away at this point would be a good idea.)

Yes Muzic Man, some of the elders of Moses time, had parents that knew Joseph.

I realize we all step in it a times. If you weren't so arrogant I'd be less inclined to tease you. :)
 
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Calminian

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Assyrian, what you're doing is changing the definition of genealogy to the mere mention of a son, followed by a narrative. I'm sorry, that's just not convincing to me at all. That's not what genealogies are. Genealogies are lists of ancestors.

You're going round and round with the same arguments. The genealogy argument falls flat. Toledoth are not genealogies. They can contain genealogies, but narratives as well.

Now you accused Wiseman of wishful thinking. I think trying to force a genealogy definition onto toledoth is wishful thinking.

We're going to just have to disagree on this.
 
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Calminian

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It's this kind of silliness that just wants to make me roll my eyes and walk away, since you don't even put a little bit of critical thought into your claims.

The Israelites were in slavery for 400 years. That's not "barely a couple of generations." That's more like 15-20 generations. 400 years is about how long ago the first European settlers came and settled at Plymouth Rock. Honestly, that's about 10% of the time that has passed since Moses was on the earth. 20% of the time since Christ.

It's not an insignificant amount of time.

Sorry, but I just don't have time or energy to unravel all of this silliness.

Now I appreciate confidence, but arrogance mixed with ignorance is never a good combo.

No, MM, the Israelites were not enslaved 400 years. Oy! How do people argue so passionately about a book they're so unfamiliar with?

Seriously, read the book of Genesis. Find some timeline charts perhaps. Study a little. Then come back and make your case.

Okay, so you actually think Moses and Joseph were separated by 400 years. Where to begin.

Just some tidbits of information. 1) The prophesy was not about the Israelites but Abraham's descendants starting with Isaac. Last I check neither he nor Jacob were enslaved. 2) The prophesy was a foretelling of wandering + slavery. 3) Jospeh died just 144 years before the Exodus. 4) And Moses was born just 64 years after Joseph died. (Uh, yeah, maybe walking away at this point would be a good idea.)

Yes Muzic Man, some of the elders of Moses time, had parents that knew Joseph.

I realize we all step in it at times. If you weren't so arrogant I'd be less inclined to tease you. :)

BTW, for anyone wanting to avoid the confusion that Muzic Man so haplessly and helplessly fell into, I suggest the following article.

How Long Were the Israelites in Egypt?

Have a feeling though, that's the last we're going to hear from MM.
 
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themuzicman

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I've looked up some info on this, and it seems they were possibly there for 210 years, not 400, based upon Isaac's age as ONE WAY of explaining how the prophecy of 400 wouldn't be true. Either way, that' still 8-10 generations, and is almost at old as the United States is.

This assumes, of course, that all genealogies are complete, and assumes Exodus 12:40-41 is in error. I assume you don't think Scripture is inerrant.

So, they cannot simply go ask people who were standing there, and the silliness of your claim remains.
 
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Calminian

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I've looked up some info on this, and it seems they were possibly there for 210 years......

LOL! Nice of you do do some research.

I had a feeling you were going to dig in. Uh, no, they were not enslaved 210 years. Moses as born just 64 years after the death of Joseph. That was a really good clue for you. Then there was the 144 years from the death of Joseph to the Exodus? That was an even better clue.

You really need to give me credit for not teasing you ruthlessly on this. I'm going to let you slide. ;)
 
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Assyrian

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Assyrian, what you're doing is changing the definition of genealogy to the mere mention of a son, followed by a narrative. I'm sorry, that's just not convincing to me at all. That's not what genealogies are. Genealogies are lists of ancestors.
If you google genealogy of (famous historical figure) you will find that genealogies run both way showing their ancestors as well as descendants. Of course the most common English usage is where people want to research their genealogy and find out who their ancestors were, but the common English usage does not tell you the semantic range of a Hebrew word that shares a some common meaning.

You're going round and round with the same arguments. The genealogy argument falls flat. Toledoth are not genealogies. They can contain genealogies, but narratives as well.
Have you read any Hebrew Lexicons to see what they say? Here is how BDB gives the meaning of toledoth:
תּוֺלֵדוֺתnoun feminine plural
generations
, especially in Genealogies = account of a man and his descendants;

a. account of men and their descendants
successive Generations (in) of families
genealogical divisions, by parentage
b. metaphorically. Genesis 2:4 literally begettings of heaven and earth, i.e. account of heaven and earth and that which proceeded from them.
Not only does it say it means genealogies, it gives the direction of the genealogies as from a man through his descendants, not the genealogy you keep thinking of going back through a man's ancestors. Where it refers to an account it is an account of a man and his descendants.

Here is a much more modern lexicon, Holladay's A concise Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament.
תּוֺלֵדוֺת: construct state תּוֺלֵדוֺת suffix.[FONT=&quot]תֹּלְדֹתָיו תּוֺלְדֹתָם: [/FONT]
collective plural :
- 1. (line) of descendants (i.e., genealogical list from ancestor) Gn 5:1 & often ;
- 2. (one’s) generation, contempories Gn 6:9 ;
- 3. story of development of generations, becomes > history Gn 37:2 ; becomes > origin Gn 2:4 ; becomes > order of birth Ex 28:10.
Again Holladay refers to toledoth as a genealogy and that the list runs forward. Where it is used to describe a history the meaning comes from toledoth being the story of how generations develop.

Now you accused Wiseman of wishful thinking. I think trying to force a genealogy definition onto toledoth is wishful thinking.
Wiseman's wishful thinking is claiming these accounts were originally written or owned by the people named. There is simply nothing in the idea of a genealogy of someone, or an account of them and their descendant's history, to suggest they wrote or owned the original text. There is nothing in the text of Genesis to suggest these people wrote or owned the toledoth mentioned in the text, that they owned any books tablets or scrolls at all, or could even write. Not only does this mean there is no evidence for Wiseman's claim, the lack of mention of books and writing in Genesis is in sharp contrast to the preoccupation with books and writing we see in the bible starting in Exodus.

We're going to just have to disagree on this.
It has been good talking with you Cal :)
 
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Calminian

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If you google genealogy of (famous historical figure) you will find that genealogies run both way showing their ancestors as well as descendants. Of course the most common English usage is where people want to research their genealogy and find out who their ancestors were, but the common English usage does not tell you the semantic range of a Hebrew word that shares a some common meaning.

We disagree.

The idea that a mention of a son followed by a narrative is somehow a genealogy is, by definition, 'wishful thinking.' (maybe even desperate thinking).

We actually owe a great debt of gratitude to Wiseman for clearing up centuries of confusion reading Genesis under a title oriented frame of reference (and yes the scholars are among those that have been confused also). This is what's lead to the confusion about genealogies and many other things. But logic wins out every time (among the logical). It just takes time for thinking paradigm changes to unfold. Wiseman hit on something that almost no one noticed. I sure didn't noticed it until the theory was suggested to me.
 
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miamited

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Hi guys,

I'm curious about the timeline that is being discussed here. According to the account of the Exodus in chapter 12:40, God's word says that the Israelites lived in Egypt for 430 years. so, I'm curious how these timelines of 160 years from Joseph to Moses, and others, have come about and what is the research that supports these things.

I apologize in advance if I've missed something in all the previous posts and I will go back and look over them.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Calminian

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Hi guys,

I'm curious about the timeline that is being discussed here. According to the account of the Exodus in chapter 12:40, God's word says that the Israelites lived in Egypt for 430 years. so, I'm curious how these timelines of 160 years from Joseph to Moses, and others, have come about and what is the research that supports these things.

I apologize in advance if I've missed something in all the previous posts and I will go back and look over them.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted

Ted, the best article on the subject I've seen is this one, but you can google it and find a lot more articles.

How Long Were the Israelites in Egypt?

This comes from the prophesy given to Abram regarding the fate of his descendants. There is a 400 year wandering and slavery prophesy, as well as a 430 year one. In essence, the article below sums up my view.
 
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Assyrian

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We disagree.

The idea that a mention of a son followed by a narrative is somehow a genealogy is, by definition, 'wishful thinking.' (maybe even desperate thinking).
You are still thinking of the English word genealogy. You need to keep two things in mind here. First is that the Hebrew term comes from the word yalad meaning to beget, so the meaning of someone's children is actually closer to root meaning of toledoth. Then you have to consider that words in a language can have a wider meaning and usage than one simple concept. Just look at the range of meanings of the Hebrew word adm, we have red, blush, dye red, man, mankind, Adam, a city in the Jordan valley, Edom, a ruby or carnelian.

We actually owe a great debt of gratitude to Wiseman for clearing up centuries of confusion reading Genesis under a title oriented frame of reference (and yes the scholars are among those that have been confused also). This is what's lead to the confusion about genealogies and many other things. But logic wins out every time (among the logical). It just takes time for thinking paradigm changes to unfold. Wiseman hit on something that almost no one noticed. I sure didn't noticed it until the theory was suggested to me.
The problem is his theory doesn't work. It fails much too often the standard meaning of toledoth works much better.

Num 1:14 from Gad, Eliasaph the son of Deuel;
15 from Naphtali, Ahira the son of Enan."
16 These were the ones chosen from the congregation, the chiefs of their ancestral tribes, the heads of the clans of Israel.
17 Moses and Aaron took these men who had been named,
18 and on the first day of the second month, they assembled the whole congregation together, who registered themselves by clans, by fathers' houses, according to the number of names from twenty years old and upward, head by head,
19 as the LORD commanded Moses. So he listed them in the wilderness of Sinai.

20 The people of Reuben, Israel's firstborn, their generations, by their clans, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, head by head, every male from twenty years old and upward, all who were able to go to war:
21 those listed of the tribe of Reuben were 46,500.
22 Of the people of Simeon, their generations, by their clans, by their fathers' houses, those of them who were listed, according to the number of names, head by head, every male from twenty years old and upward, all who were able to go to war:
23 those listed of the tribe of Simeon were 59,300.
24 Of the people of Gad, their generations, by their clans, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all who were able to go to war:
25 those listed of the tribe of Gad were 45,650.
...

42 Of the people of Naphtali, their generations, by their clans, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, every man able to go to war:
43 those listed of the tribe of Naphtali were 53,400.
Why would The tribe of Simeon keep the tablet recording the story of Reuben, and Gad keep the history of Simeon? Reuben kept the story of choosing men from each tribe to assist Moses, so who kept Naphtali's history? Why mention the history Simeon kept of Reuben alongside a mention of Simeon's and houses in a section that is about counting the number of able bodied men in Simeon?

Ruth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Perez: Perez fathered Hezron,
19 Hezron fathered Ram, Ram fathered Amminadab,
20 Amminadab fathered Nahshon, Nahshon fathered Salmon,
21 Salmon fathered Boaz, Boaz fathered Obed,
22 Obed fathered Jesse, and Jesse fathered David.
How did Perez, Judah's son get his hand on the the book of Ruth?

Wiseman's idea was rejected because it simply didn't work.
 
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Calminian

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You are still thinking of the English word genealogy....

No, Assyrian, it's simple logic. A genealogy is not a mention of a son and then a narrative. (and it some cases there's not even a mention of a son). All that is is an account, and that's exactly what I believe toledoth are—accounts. In essence you're agreeing with me that that ancient word genealogy means account in modern terms. You can quote scholars and dictionaries to your heart's content about the ancient word genealogy and how it differs with the modern word. But in essence that makes my point for me. The english modern genealogy is the wrong word for toledoth.

Now you keep posting the same arguments over and over, but I've addressed them in detail. Toledoth are not genealogies as we understand the term today. It is a word that merely means histories, chronicles or accounts.

But I respect your opinion, and agree to disagree.
 
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Assyrian

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No, Assyrian, it's simple logic. A genealogy is not a mention of a son and then a narrative. (and it some cases there's not even a mention of a son). All that is is an account, and that's exactly what I believe toledoth are—accounts. In essence you're agreeing with me that that ancient word genealogy means account in modern terms.
Not an account of another topic written by the person named, or an account of something else owned by the person named, but an account of that person and their children. That is not very far semantically from a list of that person and their children and their children's children that form the genealogies in the bible. In fact even the genealogies with long lists of who begot whom, throw in scatterings of biographical accounts in the list.

You can quote scholars and dictionaries to your heart's content about the ancient word genealogy and how it differs with the modern word. But in essence that makes my point for me. The english modern genealogy is the wrong word for toledoth.
Well the Lexicons wouldn't use the word genealogy unless it was very close in concept to the meaning of toledoth, and, given how much you dislike the description, the meaning of toledoth is closer to genealogy than your understanding of it. Most bibles follow the AV's use of 'generations' even though we don't use the word that way in ordinary English, It still conveys the concept of listing the people in different generations in the family, what we would call a family tree or genealogy. Interestingly the NASB uses 'the records of the generations' in Genesis, and 'their genealogical registration' in Numbers.

Now you keep posting the same arguments over and over, but I've addressed them in detail. Toledoth are not genealogies as we understand the term today. It is a word that merely means histories, chronicles or accounts.

But I respect your opinion, and agree to disagree.
Have you addressed Numbers and Ruth?
 
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Not an account of another topic written by the person named, or an account of something else owned by the person named, but an account of that person and their children. That is not very far semantically from a list of that person and their children and their children's children that form the genealogies in the bible. In fact even the genealogies with long lists of who begot whom, throw in scatterings of biographical accounts in the list.

IOW' toledoth are accounts. Accounts often are about family members. I'm becoming even more convinced of my position.

Have you addressed Numbers and Ruth?

Different era, perhaps different writing structures. I have really looked into it.
 
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IOW' toledoth are accounts. Accounts often are about family members. I'm becoming even more convinced of my position.



Different era, perhaps different writing structures. I have really looked into it.

Account is one of many definitions of the word, but I don't understand why "records of generations" cannot be used, because that's exactly what they are.
 
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Assyrian

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IOW' toledoth are accounts. Accounts often are about family members. I'm becoming even more convinced of my position.
Sounds like you have a bad case of confirmation bias there Cal. Toledoth is used throughout the OT for genealogical registers. It not that toledoth are, vaguely, 'often about family members', the toledoth of people in Genesis is followed by the genealogical list of their descendants or the account of the children. You have to make it vague and wooly to try to fit Wiseman's claim and even then you get completely the wrong accounts like Isaac and Ishmael or Jacob and Esau.

Different era, perhaps different writing structures. I have really looked into it.
Isn't it odd that toledoth went on to mean genealogical accounts when that is the meaning you think it couldn't possibly have in Genesis?
 
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Account is one of many definitions of the word, but I don't understand why "records of generations" cannot be used, because that's exactly what they are.

[edit] oops, misread, sorry.

I think accounts fits better in Genesis. Shem's toledoth covers Babel for instance. This wasn't exclusive to his descendants.

Now it also depends though on how the term generation is understood. In our times, generation can mean other things as well, and not be exclusive to ones family. For instance, there's the phrase, 'in my generation....' In that sense, it merely means things happened during my life. In fact, in that sense, it would quite logical as the toledoth author/owners recored contemporary events. You may have changed my thinking on that a little.

I just don't think genealogy ever works.
 
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