Messiah and the Covenant

[tzadik]

Peter's vision from God of the sheet being lowered three times and him being instructed to eat of unclean animals was a lesson that there is a spiritual meaning to the commandments.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Do you see Peter, or any other believer in Scriptures for that matter eating any unclean foods?

Peter more than once, explains the meaning of his vision. (aka NOTHING to do with clean and unclean foods, and EVERYTHING to do with people.)

To believe otherwise is to add and assume from silence.

 

[tzadik]

You dishonor Jesus by putting him on a par with Moses. He is greater than Moses, his teachings are superior to those of Moses, his commandments are higher than those of Moses, Jesus' words are LIFE.

Each time you post, it carries a similar message;
namely~ The Law of the Old testament is NOT the Law of God, but rather the law of Moses--a mere man.
(Even though it should be a fairly elementary fact that MOSES was simply a messenger of God, and did not "author" the commandments himself)

However this "misrepresentation" of God's Word, is necessary in order for your theology to stand. You see if you were to correctly represent the "Law of the OT" as the Law of God, your entire theology would crumble.

Either that or you would have to openly admit that you believe the Law of God in the flesh is better/contrary and 'weightier' than the Law of God!

To think this would be quite blasphemous, seeing that Messiah was clear in telling us that EVERYTHING He taught, said, and did was COMMANDED and the VERY WORD of God the Father.

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Whatever Baptist church you attended for 20 years ... shame on them that you don't know any better than that.

Whatever Baptist church, or whoever taught you this erroneous perspective of the Law of God...shame on them!

 

[tzadik]

That's not true. We have different perspectives on Jesus, and that is the root cause of the disagreements. People tend to see in the Scripture what they want to.


In Christ,
Pigrimer

Many see Messiah as a prophet that came to do away with God's commandments.

According to Deuteronomy 13:1-5 that would be a false messiah!


1. "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2. and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
3. you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4. "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
5. "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

It's almost like Messiah knew many would THINK that He came to do just that...

ironically He said THINK NOT.

classic case of neglecting God's commandments for the sake of men's traditions...

 

[Pilgrimer]

Peter more than once, explains the meaning of his vision. (aka NOTHING to do with clean and unclean foods, and EVERYTHING to do with people.)

If the vision had nothing to do with clean and unclean foods then why were they used to teach the lesson?

The spiritual lesson which the food purity laws were given to teach having nothing to do with food ... any more than the lesson of the forbidden fruit in the garden was about apples.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[tzadik]

If the vision had nothing to do with clean and unclean foods then why were they used to teach the lesson?

Because it was something that ALL believers, including Peter were accustomed with. All of the “NT” believers lived during a time where the Law and the Prophets were upheld by all who were true followers of Messiah and those of “The Way”.

They met on the Sabbath day, kept the Holy days of God and ate only what God designated as food for His people. So God obviously took something that was very well learned and practiced, in order to teach a lesson that was not.

In fact during the times of Acts 10, the influx of Gentile believers, was JUST starting to take form.

At that point almost all of the believers, were Jewish believers, as Acts 21:20 tells us, tens and thousands of them. The mystery of the Gentiles had just begun. The Ruach (Holy Spirit) of God was sent and the Good News was sent ALSO to the Gentiles (Rom 1:16).

This influx of Gentile believers, brought the dilemma that Peter faced, namely associating with Gentile believers.
God used one of His commandments to teach a lesson. Something He often does.
No rocket science here.

 

[Frogster]

Do you see Peter, or any other believer in Scriptures for that matter eating any unclean foods?
Peter more than once, explains the meaning of his vision. (aka NOTHING to do with clean and unclean foods, and EVERYTHING to do with people.)

To believe otherwise is to add and assume from silence.

yup...hahahaha


Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.

 

[Frogster]

Because it was something that ALL believers, including Peter were accustomed with. All of the “NT” believers lived during a time where the Law and the Prophets were upheld by all who were true followers of Messiah and those of “The Way”.

They met on the Sabbath day, kept the Holy days of God and ate only what God designated as food for His people. So God obviously took something that was very well learned and practiced, in order to teach a lesson that was not.

In fact during the times of Acts 10, the influx of Gentile believers, was JUST starting to take form.

At that point almost all of the believers, were Jewish believers, as Acts 21:20 tells us, tens and thousands of them. The mystery of the Gentiles had just begun. The Ruach (Holy Spirit) of God was sent and the Good News was sent ALSO to the Gentiles (Rom 1:16).

This influx of Gentile believers, brought the dilemma that Peter faced, namely associating with Gentile believers.
God used one of His commandments to teach a lesson. Something He often does.
No rocket science here.

then why were there animals on the sheet, and not people?

stop acting like the jewish food laws were not a major contention...

why does it say criticized if it weren't?

that stuff was all abolished, read eph 2;15...


Acts 11:2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying,3 “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

 

[Frogster]

Because it was something that ALL believers, including Peter were accustomed with. All of the “NT” believers lived during a time where the Law and the Prophets were upheld by all who were true followers of Messiah and those of “The Way”.

They met on the Sabbath day, kept the Holy days of God and ate only what God designated as food for His people. So God obviously took something that was very well learned and practiced, in order to teach a lesson that was not.

In fact during the times of Acts 10, the influx of Gentile believers, was JUST starting to take form.

At that point almost all of the believers, were Jewish believers, as Acts 21:20 tells us, tens and thousands of them. The mystery of the Gentiles had just begun. The Ruach (Holy Spirit) of God was sent and the Good News was sent ALSO to the Gentiles (Rom 1:16).

This influx of Gentile believers, brought the dilemma that Peter faced, namely associating with Gentile believers.
God used one of His commandments to teach a lesson. Something He often does.
No rocket science here.

Paul said he wasted his time on them in Gal 4:10-11, when they were under the Jewish calendar...

 

[Pilgrimer]

Each time you post, it carries a similar message;
namely~ The Law of the Old testament is NOT the Law of God, but rather the law of Moses--a mere man.

That is not true. I will assume that you have not read my posts and are therefore unaware of my testimony, so let me quote what I stated for example in post #364 under this thread:

"The Law is beautiful, holy, glorious, wonderful. I have studied the Law for over half of my life, and I'm almost 60, and I love the Law of God. But the Law pales in comparison to the Beauty and Wonder and Glory and Holiness of the Crucified One whom the Law was given to point us to and teach us about.

Now that I have corrected your mistake, why not tell me precisely what in my statement above you disagree with?

(Even though it should be a fairly elementary fact that MOSES was simply a messenger of God, and did not "author" the commandments himself)

You are mistaken that referring to the Law as the Law of Moses somehow implies that the Law did not come from God, it does not. It acknowledges that the Law came "through" Moses and gives to him his rightful authority over Israel. Even Jesus used the term:

"If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:23)

And again:

"These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."
Luke 24:44

However this "misrepresentation" of God's Word, is necessary in order for your theology to stand. You see if you were to correctly represent the "Law of the OT" as the Law of God, your entire theology would crumble.

The only misrepresentation here is your misrepresentation of my beliefs, which is necessary for your theology to stand.

Either that or you would have to openly admit that you believe the Law of God in the flesh is better/contrary and 'weightier' than the Law of God!

The Law of God "in the flesh" is Jesus Christ and yes, He is better than the Law written in tables of stone. Again, do you disagree?

To think this would be quite blasphemous, seeing that Messiah was clear in telling us that EVERYTHING He taught, said, and did was COMMANDED and the VERY WORD of God the Father.

Oh, no doubt, but the question is, was everything Jesus did only what was commanded in the Law? If so, please tell me which commandment Jesus was obeying when he poured out his own blood for remission of sin.

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Whatever Baptist church, or whoever taught you this erroneous perspective of the Law of God...shame on them!

The Holy Spirit has taught me these things, by showing me the Law of God in the light of the Gospel of God.

Where have you received your teaching?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Many see Messiah as a prophet that came to do away with God's commandments.

Christians see Jesus as the Son of God who came to fulfill everything the Law foreshadowed and the Prophets foretold. Unlike some we believe he actually accomplished what he came to do, and did in fact fulfill every jot and tittle. Indeed, we believe the evidence Jesus said would be the sign that every jot and tittle were fulfilled was that the Temple would be destroyed, not one stone left standing upon another, and with it's loss, the Old Covenant means of reconciliation and fellowship came to an end, and passed away. That simple truth doesn't even require faith to believe.

It's almost like Messiah knew many would THINK that He came to do just that...

ironically He said THINK NOT.

Jesus didn't destroy the Law and the Prophets, I have numerous copies, in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, and even a very old copy of Luther's German translation. The Law and the Prophets still exist, and they continue to bear witness to the Gospel. It is the Law as a means of being reconciled and enjoying fellowship with God that was fulfilled and has passed away.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

God used one of His commandments to teach a lesson. Something He often does.
No rocket science here.

tzadik, God uses all his commandments to teach a lesson. Lessons about holy living. That's why Torah means "teachings." There is a moral lesson to every commandment, and we could spend 10 lifetimes trying to learn everything the Law teaches about holiness. But when you cannot see, or you refuse to acknowledge, that the lessons to be learned from the food purity laws are not about food, then you miss the whole point.

The Gospel is the point. But the Apostle whom the Glorified Jesus gave the greatest wisdom and understanding in the Gospel, was a Pharisee, deeply instructed in the Law, who you reject because he teaches that the humble Nazarene you claim to follow is the Risen, Ascendent, Glorified, Everliving Son of David seated on the right hand of the Father to whom all power and all authority in heaven and on earth has been given, the same Glorified Jesus that John testified he saw revealed in heaven. Paul is a true and faithful witness, not an eyewitness of the life and ministry of Jesus in the humility of the flesh, but an eyewitness of the power and glory of Jesus in the spirit.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[JLB777]

Many see Messiah as a prophet that came to do away with God's commandments.

According to Deuteronomy 13:1-5 that would be a false messiah!


1. "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2. and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, `Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
3. you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4. "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
5. "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

It's almost like Messiah knew many would THINK that He came to do just that...

ironically He said THINK NOT.

classic case of neglecting God's commandments for the sake of men's traditions...

Please list for us the Commandments we are to keep. today.

• The Law of God to Adam - Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• The Law of God to Noah was - Build a ark!

• The Law of God to Abraham - Walk before me and be blameless!

• The Law of God to Moses - Go to Pharaoh and tell him to Let My People Go!

• The Law of God to you - Abide in Me!

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Do you keep this commandment!

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

His commandments are what He is saying to you today!

... just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love

It's a living relationship! He lives in you to speak to you and lead you!

JLB

 

[Clare73]

Did Messiah love differently than YHWH?

Why do you ask?

 

[Clare73]

Through the use of the word kainos in Scripture itself, we can know its intent as compared to neos, as I've explained previously.

Here's another witness from how Messiah used the word Himself: "ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους" Jn 13:34. In the KJV, it is translated "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Messiah here used καινὴν - contrary to the belief of the KJV translators, this was certainly not a new commandment; it was already in existence in the past in Torah (Lev 19:18). Messiah came to refresh and renew it from man's traditions which had grown up around it. καινὴν means renewed, not brand-new.

Where do you find "Love one another as I have loved you" in the Law?

 

[Clare73]

No, I am saying Messiah intended to say καινὴν.

If Yehoshua was separate from YHWH, I would agree this is a new commandment. I believe that Yehoshua is YHWH, and YHWH demonstrated His love for us through Yehoshua. Yehoshua's love is identical to YHWH's love; this is not a new or separate commandment.

Torah is not Moses' words. Torah is YHWH's Words.

... and with this ad hominem attack, I prefer not to continue this conversation.

Good choice!

 

[Clare73]

The reality told us that it's lawful to do good on His Father's Holy Day.
The reality told us that He is the Lord of God's Holy Day.
The reality told us that we are to do and teach even the LEAST of God's Commandments.
The reality told us that we are to keep God's commandments.
We are told in Scriptures to walk in the same manner as the reality walked.
We are told in Scriptures to be IMITATORS of the reality.
Did the Reality keep God's Sabbath day holy? Yes.
Should we as followers of the Reality? No? That would be error and completely against Scriptures.

Yes, and all those shadows spoken of by the reality did not become reality themselves until his atonement on Calvary, when he became their reality.

Now he is our Sabbath rest, from works to earn God's favor.
Now his law of love (Ro 3:8-10; 1Co 9:21)) is God's command.
Now he walks in freedom from law-keeping to earn God's favor.
Now his law of love alone, faith through grace alone, righteousness in him alone by faith (not by law-keeping) is what we imitate.

 

[tzadik]

Yes, and all those shadows spoken of by the reality did not become reality themselves until his atonement on Calvary, when he became their reality.

It’s quite disappointing to see you looking for reasons to invalidate and expire any of God’s Clear Instructions in Righteousness.
It’s as if you have a personal vendetta against each and every one of God’s commandments, and wish to explain them away so that you may live in a world, where outward obedience is erased.
Unfortunately, God is a God of order, inward order that manifests itself outwardly.
If you were to closely look at God’s Word you would see that He ALWAYS wants our FRUIT to give account of what’s inside!
This is why He tells us in Matthew 7 that it’s by our fruit that we will be able to tell if we are truly God’s children or not.
See God’s children are the ones that live according to God’s instructions.
God’s children are the ones who are imitators of God’s Son!
God’s children are not those who look, speak, teach and walk NOTHING like Messiah.
God’s children are not those who say “lord, lord” but live lawlessly.
God’s children are not those who do NOT live according to the Father’s will.
God’s children are those who follow in the footsteps of those who followed in the footsteps of Messiah!

Now he is our Sabbath rest, from works to earn God's favor.

Just as ALL of the believers in the “NT” continued meeting on God’s Sabbath day, in obedience to God’s instruction to let it be a holy convocation, so too I continue obeying this commandment that He clearly wanted us to remember forever!

Now his law of love (Ro 3:8-10; 1Co 9:21)) is God's command.

If Messiah’s ‘law’ is ANYTHING but the exact same Torah of the Father, or if Messiah’s ‘law’ teaches something contrary to the Torah of the Father, he would be a false messiah! Make sure you’re not following a prophet who breaks and teaches the breaking of God’s commandments…

Now he walks in freedom from law-keeping to earn God's favor.

Let me rephrase it for ya and let you look at it again: “now He walks in freedom from the keeping of God’ sWord to earn His favor”. What do you say? Do you believe we are now supposed to disregard Matthew 4:4?

Now his law of love alone, faith through grace alone, righteousness in him alone by faith (not by law-keeping) is what we imitate.

Do you mean to tell me that people were saved, or imputed righteousness by another means besides BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, at some point in time???

 

[Pilgrimer]

Yes, and all those shadows spoken of by the reality did not become reality themselves until his atonement on Calvary, when he became their reality.

Well said and Amen~

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

It’s quite disappointing to see you looking for reasons to invalidate and expire any of God’s Clear Instructions in Righteousness.

If God's intent was truly as you insist to send Jesus to renew the Old Covenant so that His people could serve Him according to the commandments of the Law, then why did God take away everything He had provided for the Law's observance?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Clare73]

Many see Messiah as a prophet that came to do away with God's commandments.

You set the Word of God against itself.
Two points:

1) The Word of God reveals that the priesthood in the order of Aaron (which was the basis for the Mosaic Law--Heb 7:11)
was changed to the order of Melchizedek, in fulfillment of Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:17-20),
thereby requiring that the law on which it was based also be changed (Heb 7:12), set aside (Heb 7:18-19) and replaced with the law of Christ (1Co 9:21), its new high priest in the order of Melchizedek, which is love (Jas 2:8; Ro 13:8-10).

The law of Moses is upheld (established) because:
a) it is its ceremonial obligations which are fulfilled in Christ's person,
b) it is its moral obligations which are fulfilled in Christ's law of love (Ro 13:8-10).

That is the revelation of the Word of God.

2) Are you saying Jesus Christ spoke saying, "Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them."?