Messiah and the Covenant

[ananda]

This reminds me of what Yehoshua said: "ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition" (Mt 15:6). Traditions - the words of man (e.g. Hebrews) - have greater weight with men then the commandments of YHWH and Yehoshua.

 

[Pilgrimer]

You are missing the point...again.
What does God require from His people, EVEN AFTER they've been cursed...

tzadik, the point is that "what God required of His people after they were cursed" is not the point. I'm not the one missing it.

What God required from His people even after they were cursed is not the point because God's New Covenant people are not cursed, and are not without a Temple, and a Priesthood, and an altar, and a sacrifice, and a Way to have our sins atoned so that we might come into God's presence and dwell in His House and worship and serve Him all the days of our lives.

God's people have not been cursed and cut off from God for the past 2000 years, that is not what Jesus came to do and not what his sacrifice has accomplished.

Does He give them a "the Law is no longer applicable pass"
Does He say "you are free from the Law"

Yes, it's called a New Covenant, in which there is a new temple, and a new High Priest, and a new sacrifice.

Those who are under the New Covenant are free from the Law, which cannot be obeyed anyway because the things which God provided for the Law's observance have all been taken away rendering obedience to "all" God's commadments "impossible," which you freely admit, but fail to understand the meaning of prefering to believe that God's people are to live as though they are cursed, without a Way to obey everything God commands, and therefore without a means of enjoying fellowship with Him.

The New Covenant Gospel freeing us from the Old Covenant Law does not mean we are lawless.

Look at my avatar. I chose it because that is the cornerstone of my faith, of my doctrine, of my life. When I say that I partake of the body and blood of Jesus, which means I live my life trusting in and depending upon what that sacrifice affords, then I am continually observing the Passover, but in a new and different and living way, which is in fact the very fulfillment of what the old passover foreshadowed and indeed, why the old passover happened in the first place. Surely you don't think Israel being enslaved in Egypt, and then being delivered from that slavery, was just some meaningless Bible story do you? That was all engineered by God for a reason, to teach us, to foreshadow how God would accomplish our deliverance from slavery to sin. And every year, generation after generation, God commanded an "appointment" (feast) with His people to teach them and their children, and their children's children, this lesson, about how God delivers his people from their slavery.

But God is no longer keeping the Passover "appointment" (feast) with His people according to the ordianances of the Old Covenant because that teaching (Torah) has come to pass, and God is keeping the Passover "appointment" (feast) with His people according to the ordinances of the New Covenant, which is to eat the flesh and drink the blood of His Son. I "observe" the Lord's Passover of the New Covenant.

You do realize that the word "observe," as in the commandment to observe the Passover, means "to keep," in the sense of holding it close to your heart, "to guard," in the sense of protecting, "to give heed," meaning to pay attention, listen, "to watch and wait upon," in the sense of giving attendance to, "to celebrate," in the sense of rejoicing in.

Do you not see how this, rather than destroying the Law, in fact establishes the Law, forever, even without a temple, and a priesthood, and an altar, and a sacrifice "made according to the Law", earthy, corruptible, temporal.

You do believe, don't you, that under the New Covenant Jesus is the Passover Lamb whose blood saves God's people from judgment? Well if the Old Covenant Passover "lamb" could be symbolic of a "man," why is it so difficult for you to believe that other things in the Law could also have been symbolic?

Your insistence that the Law can only be taken in it's literal sense is exactly the mistake so many of the Jewish people made and what led the religious leaders to crucify their own Messiah. Their blind zealotry for the letter of the Law to the exclusion of any spiritual or symbolic meaning is why they did not recognize the Messiah when he came, because he did not fulfll the promises the way they had determined he should based on their literal interpretation of the Scriptures that excluded any symbolism and spiritual meaning.

If the man Jesus is what the passover lamb symbolized, then why is it impossible that the day of Salvation is what the 7th day symbolized, and Jesus is the New Covenant Sabbath?

"Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Clare73]

tzadik, the point is that "what God required of His people after they were cursed" is not the point. I'm not the one missing it.

What God required from His people even after they were cursed is not the point because God's New Covenant people are not cursed, and are not without a Temple, and a Priesthood, and an altar, and a sacrifice, and a Way to have our sins atoned so that we might come into God's presence and dwell in His House and worship and serve Him all the days of our lives.

God's people have not been cursed and cut off from God for the past 2000 years, that is not what Jesus came to do and not what his sacrifice has accomplished.



Yes, it's called a New Covenant, in which there is a new temple, and a new High Priest, and a new sacrifice.

Those who are under the New Covenant are free from the Law, which cannot be obeyed anyway because the things which God provided for the Law's observance have all been taken away rendering obedience to "all" God's commadments "impossible," which you freely admit, but fail to understand the meaning of prefering to believe that God's people are to live as though they are cursed, without a Way to obey everything God commands.

The New Covenant Gospel freeing us from the Old Covenant Law does not mean we are lawless.

Look at my avatar. I chose it because that is the cornerstone of my faith, of my doctrine, of my life. When I say that I partake of the body and blood of Jesus, which means I live my life trusting in and depending upon what that sacrifice affords, then I am continually observing the Passover, but in a new and different and living way, which is in fact the very fulfillment of what the old passover foreshadowed and indeed, why the old passover happened in the first place. Surely you don't think Israel being enslaved in Egypt, and then being delivered from that slavery, was just some meaningless Bible story do you? That was all engineered by God for a reason, to teach us, to foreshadow how God would accomplish our deliverance from slavery to sin. And every year, generation after generation, God commanded an "appointment" (feast) with His people to teach them and their children, and their children's children, this lesson, about how God delivers his people from their slavery.

But God is no longer keeping the Passover "appointment" (feast) with His people according to the ordianances of the Old Covenant because that teaching (Torah) has come to pass, and God is keeping the Passover "appointment" (feast) with His people according to the ordinances of the New Covenant, which is to eat the flesh and drink the blood of His Son.

You do realize that the word "observe," as in the commandment to observe the Passover, means "to keep," in the sense of holding it close to your heart, "to guard," in the sense of protecting, "to give heed," meaning to pay attention, listen, "to watch and wait upon," in the sense of giving attendance to, "to celebrate," in the sense of rejoicing in.

I "observe" the Lord's Passover of the New Covenant, which is the substance, the lessons God intended us to learn from Torah (the "Teachings"). The New Covenant Passover is what the Old Passover was all about, a lesson to teach us about, instruct us in, and direct us to the Way that God would deliver us from our slavery to sin ... by the blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Do you not see how this, rather than destroying the Law, in fact establishes the Law, forever, even without a temple, and a priesthood, and an altar, and a sacrifice "made according to the Law", earthy, corruptible, temporal.

You do believe, don't you, that under the New Covenant Jesus is the Passover Lamb whose blood saves God's people from judgment? Well if the Old Covenant Passover "lamb" could be symbolic of a "man," why is it so difficult for you to believe that other things in the Law could also have been symbolic?

Your insistence that the Law can only be taken in it's literal sense is exactly the mistake so many of the Jewish people made and what led the religious leaders to crucify their own Messiah. Their blind zealotry for the letter of the Law to the exclusion of any spiritual or symbolic meaning is why they did not recognize the Messiah when he came, because he did not fulfll the promises the way they had determined he should based on their literal interpretation of the Scriptures that excluded any symbolism and spiritual meaning.

If the man Jesus is what the passover lamb symbolized, then why is it impossible that the day of Salvation is what the 7th day symbolized, and Jesus is the New Covenant Sabbath?

"Come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

"Keep" is also to carry out, obey.

 

[Clare73]

parrot alert!

'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Which is not the same as "Love one another as I have loved you."

parrot alert, indeed!

Your misunderstanding of Scripture sets the Word of God against itself.

 

[Clare73]

This reminds me of what Yehoshua said: "ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition" (Mt 15:6). Traditions - the words of man (e.g. Hebrews) - have greater weight with men then the commandments of YHWH and Yehoshua.

All 66 books of the Bible are the commands of God because they are the Word of God.

And you set the Word of God against itself.

 

[ananda]

All 66 books of the Bible are the commands of God because they are the Word of God. And you set the Word of God against itself.

So you identify with the Protestant canon. Why not the Catholic, Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Marcion's, Luther's, or my canon?

What makes your canon more legitimate than any of these other canons?

 

[Clare73]

So you identify with the Protestant canon. Why not the Catholic, Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Marcion's, Luther's, or my canon?

What makes your canon more legitimate than any of these other canons?

You are free to believe whatever Canon you choose.

We all get to choose, and we all get to bear the consequences of our choices.

I choose to believe the Reformed Canon because the Holy Spirit bears powerful witness to me of its divine origin and truth.

I suggest that you believe whatever Canon to which the Holy Spirit bears witness to you.

 

[ananda]

I choose to believe the Reformed Canon because the Holy Spirit bears powerful witness to me of its divine origin and truth

And how does the Spirit bear witness to you for your "Reformed Canon"?

 

[Clare73]

And how does the Spirit bear witness to you for your "Reformed Canon"?

Well, it's easier felt than tell't. . .

A powerfully felt convincing and unshakeable certainty, which is as immediate as color to your eye or taste to your mouth, that leaves one absolutely without any doubt as to its divine origin, truth, authority; the manifest glory of its doctrine; the unsearchableness of its divine wisdom; the complete transcendance of the wisdom of man; the majesty of its style; its purity; its power. . .

And what is amazing is that the apocrapha do not have that power.
There is such a difference between God-breathed composition and composition from the mind of man!

 

[Pilgrimer]

Well, it's easier felt than tell't. . .

A powerfully felt convincing and unshakeable certainty, which is as immediate as color to your eye or taste to your mouth, that leaves one absolutely without any doubt as to its divine origin, truth, authority; the manifest glory of its doctrine; the unsearchableness of its divine wisdom; the complete transcendance of the wisdom of man; the majesty of its style; its purity; its power. . .

And what is amazing is that the apocrapha do not have that power.
There is such a difference between God-breathed composition and composition from the mind of man!

How very true! Well said and Amen~

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ananda]

Well, it's easier felt than tell't. . .

So, it boils down to, you feel your canon is more correct then the other canons.

For me, the Spirit's role is to guide us to the truth (Jn 16:13), as Messiah stated. Peter confirms this when he wrote that we are to "[obey] the truth through the Spirit" (1Pet 1:22). What is the truth? Messiah stated that "thy word is truth." (Jn 17:17). The only Scripture He identified as the "word" is the Law, Prophets, and Writings. My canon, for me, is not just a matter of feeling. My canon is tested by the guidelines given in the Word which Messiah identified as truth; this is how I arrived at my canon.

And what is amazing is that the apocrapha do not have that power. There is such a difference between God-breathed composition and composition from the mind of man!

Interesting ... Paul's words do not have that sense of 'power' to me either.

 

[tzadik]

So, it boils down to, you feel your canon is more correct then the other canons.

For me, the Spirit's role is to guide us to the truth (Jn 16:13), as Messiah stated. Peter confirms this when he wrote that we are to "[obey] the truth through the Spirit" (1Pet 1:22). What is the truth? Messiah stated that "thy word is truth." (Jn 17:17). The only Scripture He identified as the "word" is the Law, Prophets, and Writings. My canon, for me, is not just a matter of feeling. My canon is tested by the guidelines given in the Word which Messiah identified as truth; this is how I arrived at my canon.

AMEN!

Psalms 119
43. And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth,
For I wait for Your ordinances.

142. Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth.

151. You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

160. The sum of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

How can ANYONE claiming to be "led by the Spirit" and in the same breath believe that 'that spirit' leads them against any of the above--clearly labeled as TRUTH?!

 

[JLB777]

AMEN!

Psalms 119
43. And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth,
For I wait for Your ordinances.

142. Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth.

151. You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

160. The sum of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

How can ANYONE claiming to be "led by the Spirit" and in the same breath believe that 'that spirit' leads them against any of the above--clearly labeled as TRUTH?!

in the same breath believe that 'that spirit' leads them against any of the above--clearly labeled as TRUTH?


Which one one these scriptures is TRUTH!

Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.


JLB

 

[Frogster]

telos = aim/goal and NOT end.
Stop using mistranslations and misinterpretation of Scripture to support your theology.

Unless of course you honestly did not know that, or ever took the time to look at the Greek...and are honestly misled...

Messiah continues to be the Goal and Aim of the Torah!!

telos is mostly used as end, that is why most translations put end, in 10:4.


New Testament Greek Definition:
5056 telos {tel'-os}
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);
TDNT - 8:49,1161; n n
AV - end 35, custom 3, uttermost 1, finally 1, ending 1,
by (one's) continual + 1519 1; 42
1) end 1a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be
(always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end
of a period of time)
1b) the end 1b1) the last in any succession or series
1b2) eternal
1c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
1d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

 

[Frogster]

parrot alert!
The basis of the Entire Law of God is...


37. And He said to him, " `YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38. "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39. "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40. "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

If you believe Messiah was lying...
you should take it up with him.

Let Him know that He was incorrect, and that you have since discovered that the Law depends on the priesthood, and not these two commandments...

you know she is correct, why argue that point?

 

[Frogster]

This reminds me of what Yehoshua said: "ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition" (Mt 15:6). Traditions - the words of man (e.g. Hebrews) - have greater weight with men then the commandments of YHWH and Yehoshua.

and your theology only works, if we chuck out Luke, which means one Gospel is gone also, the book of Acts is gone, Peter is gone , and Hebrews is gone...wow....

 

[Frogster]

So you identify with the Protestant canon. Why not the Catholic, Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Marcion's, Luther's, or my canon?

What makes your canon more legitimate than any of these other canons?

your problem is Luke...Acts totally supports Paul, that is why you won't argue the post that I put, that shows all the support from Luke.

Catholics think Acts and the Gospel of Luke, are inspired text, and Peter.

Oh, and Paul too....

 

[Frogster]

And how does the Spirit bear witness to you for your "Reformed Canon"?

Millions of Christians received the Spirit, reading Paul...

that will just be our little secret, no one else knows...just u and me now...

 

[Frogster]

So, it boils down to, you feel your canon is more correct then the other canons.

For me, the Spirit's role is to guide us to the truth (Jn 16:13), as Messiah stated. Peter confirms this when he wrote that we are to "[obey] the truth through the Spirit" (1Pet 1:22). What is the truth? Messiah stated that "thy word is truth." (Jn 17:17). The only Scripture He identified as the "word" is the Law, Prophets, and Writings. My canon, for me, is not just a matter of feeling. My canon is tested by the guidelines given in the Word which Messiah identified as truth; this is how I arrived at my canon.
Interesting ... Paul's words do not have that sense of 'power' to me either.

The churches received the Spirit without the law, read Gal 3, and other texts.

 

[Frogster]

And how does the Spirit bear witness to you for your "Reformed Canon"?

Did Pentecost happen, as per the account from Luke?

Did Luke make it up?