Repentence: What Does It Really Mean?

[bling]

Okay, thanks! Think I'll need to read up and and get clear on what faith really means.

But if I can ask one last question: How exactly does one "get" faith? I mean I know that it says by, "...hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But what exactly does "hearing" mean? And how do you "hear?"

A lot of times when the Bible talks about “Faith” it is referring to a saving faith.

All humans are given at birth from God a small degree of “faith” that allows them to trust others and learn about trust (what can be trusted and what should not be trusted and how much something can be trusted).

“hearing” has to do with allowing the truth enter your heart and soften your heart to the point of being able to trust (faith) God to truly help you (forgive you). If you are “happy” with the way you are and what you are doing, you will not allow yourself (come to your senses as the Prodigal son did) to hear the reality (truth). There is unused faith in you being directed at everything but God, so that faith is not saving faith unless directed towards God.

 

[bling]

PS.

I have never spoken in tounges, but I do know I have the indwelling Holy Spirit as my personal guarentee.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

What's on my mind?

Haha...no, no...I was just referring to things on my mind and used the word "your" in a general sense.

Further, there is Scripture where some were filled with the Holy Spirit and did not speak in tongues.

If it's not too much trouble, can you please provide the scripture?

Also, with regard to those specific verses, how can one be certain that those people didn't actually speak in tongues? Could it just be an assumption because it wasn't mentioned? Or was something written to imply (or confirm) that they actually could not speak in tongues? If the former, then they may have been able to, no?

As for Marcionism, I don't think I've ever heard that word before, but I don't understand, what exactly does it have to do with the Holy Spirit and in what way is it a detriment to Christianity?

 

[JRSut1000]

If someone is filled with the Ruach (Holy Spirit), it doesnt have to be in the 'intitial evidence of tongues' (which is a doctrine that is not Scriptural). Are not the other gifts evidence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in a believer?

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

A lot of times when the Bible talks about “Faith” it is referring to a saving faith.

Yea', that much I get. It's just the receiving part I'm having a hard time with.

“hearing” has to do with allowing the truth enter your heart and soften your heart to the point of being able to trust (faith) God to truly help you (forgive you).

How do you do that, tho'? I thought I had clear-cut instructions on how to receive faith (as mentioned earlier), until I realized the whole pharisee thing. I've prayed for faith and I still don't know who, what, when, where, why.

I have never spoken in tounges, but I do know I have the indwelling Holy Spirit as my personal guarentee.

Can you, as best you can, describe how you know? Because I hear that word a lot, and think it's not only a strong word, but that it also seems to vary in definition from person to person.

If you could provide scripture to corroborate what leads you to know, without a doubt, that the Holy Spirit is within you, that would be great and very, very interesting, as well.

 

[JRSut1000]

Well, Jesus was our high priest, so I see no NEED to confess to another in order to be forgiven. However, to confess to each other our sins is good because it helps get things off our chest, but God can and will forgive us when we go to Him through Jesus CHrist.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Seems all over the place, to be honest, JR. Some say you HAVE TO, while other say you don't. So I don't know.

 

[JRSut1000]

What does the Bible say? I dont see it saying specifically "You've got to speak in tongues"? Actually Paul says "Do all prophecy? Do all speak in tongues?"

 

[JRSut1000]

Really, I see it as when we get saved, truly saved the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us and leads us and uses us working in and through us.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

What does the Bible say? I dont see it saying specifically "You've got to speak in tongues"? Actually Paul says "Do all prophecy? Do all speak in tongues?"

My previous quote was referring to confession. The speaking in tongues implying that one is indwelled with the Holy Spirit thing is news to me, though.

And which verse are you referring to above? And in what context was it used?

Really, I see it as when we get saved, truly saved the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us and leads us and uses us working in and through us.

Again, I haven't read up on this at all, but would love if others chimed in and shared their thoughts.

But basically what the sermon I watched was suggesting was that, falling down, shivering, laughing, and doing what you see many doing is not of the Spirit, but rather of the mind. The pastor said that when Paul laid his hands on someone, they began to speak in tongues. He referenced a few other verses, as well, to suggest speaking in tongues as an automatic response to receiving the Spirit, but I didn't take notes so I don't remember which they were. I've looked before with no luck, but I'll see if I can find a podcast of that specific taping online and (if it's allowed) I'll post it here if I do.

 

[oi_antz]

Seems all over the place, to be honest, JR. Some say you HAVE TO, while other say you don't. So I don't know.

Just because someone says something that is true does not guarantee that everything they say is true. This is why God gave us intellect, so we can think about the information we receive and decide which is the best belief to have. I believe it is not wise to confess your every sin to a human, but there are obviously some sins that it would be wise to confess or even to apologise for. Confessing to an authoritative representative of the church may in fact earn forgiveness on a human level, whereas for confession to Jesus Christ you don't need a mediator.

But basically what the sermon I watched was suggesting was that, falling down, shivering, laughing, and doing what you see many doing is not of the Spirit, but rather of the mind.

There's very little distinction between workings of spirits and workings of the mind. The key thing for you would be to identify the nature of the Holy Spirit so you can identify fraudulent spirits. How do you identify the nature of the Holy Spirit? By knowing the nature of God. IE by reading the bible, and accepting God for who He is despite that you can't understand the reason for some of His decisions (I apologise if this is presumptuous, I am only preempting your response).

 

[razeontherock]

If it's not too much trouble, can you please provide the scripture?

Also, with regard to those specific verses, how can one be certain that those people didn't actually speak in tongues? Could it just be an assumption because it wasn't mentioned? Or was something written to imply (or confirm) that they actually could not speak in tongues? If the former, then they may have been able to, no?

Good point. So to advance the doctrine that you MUST speak in tongues as evidence of being Baptized in the Spirit, one also has to assume, rather than rely on Scripture. I'm hoping someone else can post Scripture where someone was initially filled with the Holy Spirit and did not speak in tongues? (Or it wasn't recorded that they did) I know there are instances, but how to place them is not coming to mind.

As for Marcionism, I don't think I've ever heard that word before, but I don't understand, what exactly does it have to do with the Holy Spirit and in what way is it a detriment to Christianity?

I don't mean to be rude, but the simplest way to do this is google the word. It may well point you to a CF thread on it Any source from any denom should give the same basic info of the practice, and I think you will see why it was condemned as heresy. Then we could discuss how this can become relevant today.

Good discussion!

 

[ephraimanesti]

There's very little distinction between workings of spirits and workings of the mind. The key thing for you would be to identify the nature of the Holy Spirit so you can identify fraudulent spirits. How do you identify the nature of the Holy Spirit? By knowing the nature of God. IE by reading the bible, and accepting God for who He is despite that you can't understand the reason for some of His decisions (I apologise if this is presumptuous, I am only preempting your response).

MY BROTHER,

Yes, knowing the Bible--God's "thoughts on paper"--intimately is indeed important in helping one sort through and identify which communications are from the HOLY Spirit and which are from the Adversary or one's own ego.

Likewise, though, it is equally important that one KNOW ONESELF equally well as our minds can be as easily swayed by our egos as by our Creator. One criteria that works well for me in this regard is that when communications come which tell me what i want to hear, then they need to be most seriously questioned and verified before being accepted--especial in view of the truth that my mind has been controlled by my ego for MUCH longer than it has by my Lord. If, one the other hand, the message is NOT something i want to hear and DOES NOT sit well with my personal "needs and desires," then i tend to accept it more readily as being from Abba.

(A third criteria is based on the fact that Abba has a sense of humor where His Adversary most decidedly does not.)

Regarding the above criteria, my experience is that it does not necessarily get "easier" to differentiate between communicators as years go by, but one does get more accurate in separating the background static from the Spirit's Voice as time goes by and one becomes more obedient and surrendered to Abba's Will.

Just thoughts . . . . .

ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

My previous quote was referring to confession. The speaking in tongues implying that one is indwelled with the Holy Spirit thing is news to me, though.

Right. Neither is something one HAS to do. (Confession to a human Priest, nor speaking in tongues to prove to others you have been Baptized by the Spirit)

But basically what the sermon I watched was suggesting was that, falling down, shivering, laughing, and doing what you see many doing is not of the Spirit, but rather of the mind. The pastor said that when Paul laid his hands on someone, they began to speak in tongues.

Other than learning about Marcionism I will say anything not gross sin cannot be determined if someone else is "lead by the Spirit" or not, merely by seeing what they do. The topic is Spiritual, and is Spiritually discerned. (These things take both time and effort to understand)

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Thanks for your thoughs, oi.

There's very little distinction between workings of spirits and workings of the mind.

Really? How so?

Is it not possible to -think- something is true, fall into that belief, allow that belief to dictate your actions, even though it's possible that such a belief is untrue? I'm pretty sure that's what he meant - that people operate from the mind, and believe that it's the Spirit. When much of what was written with regard to what seems to happen when someone receives the Holy Spirit, was that they spoke in tongues - and nothing in the bible about people shivering, etc, after having received it.

The key thing for you would be to identify the _nature_ of the Holy Spirit so you can identify fraudulent spirits.

Good point. I agree.

You contrast and compare what you see, hear, etc, with Gods word and thus can pinpoint whether or not something is of/from God or not. But although a great thing to be grounded in God's Word, simply reading the bible, as I see it, doesn't automatically fill you with the Holy Spirit or give you faith.

 

[razeontherock]

although a great thing to be grounded in God's Word, simply reading the bible, as I see it, doesn't automatically fill you with the Holy Spirit or give you faith.

Correct This is a great interest to pursue!

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them" And let me introduce you to a wonderful search tool:

Hebrews 4 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

Good point. So to advance the doctrine that you MUST speak in tongues as evidence of being Baptized in the Spirit, one also has to assume, rather than rely on Scripture.

I also hope someone comes along and sheds some light on this.

Until then, even if it's not written, and all we have are the instances where every time someone received the Spirit, they spoke in tongues, what then? Is it still an assumption? Yea', I guess. Would seem a somewhat safe assumption, though, wouldn't it?

I don't mean to be rude, but the simplest way to do this is google the word. It may well point you to a CF thread on it Any source from any denom should give the same basic info of the practice, and I think you will see why it was condemned as heresy. Then we could discuss how this can become relevant today.

Good discussion!

Will do. Thanks, Raz.

 

[CantThinkofaUserName]

but one does get more accurate in separating the background static from the Spirit's Voice as time goes by and one becomes more obedient and surrendered to Abba's Will.

Just thoughts . . . . .

ephraim

And good thoughts they are, ephraimanesti.

I agree that the ego can act as a very active force in many of our lives, which I have a very strong desire to overcome. Hope I, too, can one day attain a closer connection to the Holy Spirit (and thus God) that will push aside all this "noise" in the background.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[oi_antz]

Thanks for your thoughs, oi.

There's very little distinction between workings of spirits and workings of the mind.

Really? How so?

When a spirit possesses a body, it takes total control of the body including the thoughts. A fit body is controlled by the mind. A smoker cannot smoke a cigarette unless the mind allows it to. A murderer cannot kill unless his mind allows it to. Therefore when we are living in the Holy Spirit our minds are directed by Him. When we are under the influence of a demon we can perform some attrocious demonic actions, let me not get specific. But Jesus did warn that this could happen, here:

Matthew 6:22-23
New Living Translation (NLT)
22 “Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light.
23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is!

Notice also that Satan has a finger in the pie:

Revelation 3:9
Look, I will force those who belong to Satan’s synagogue—those liars who say they are Jews but are not—to come and bow down at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.

So really it becomes a responsibility of yours to be sure that your mind is fit to worship God and not overcome by such demonic spirits that would bomb abortion clinics or assault homosexuals, in other words to pursue the light instead of the darkness.

Is it not possible to -think- something is true, fall into that belief, allow that belief to dictate your actions, even though it's possible that such a belief is untrue? I'm pretty sure that's what he meant - that people operate from the mind, and believe that it's the Spirit. When much of what was written with regard to what seems to happen when someone receives the Holy Spirit, was that they spoke in tongues - and nothing in the bible about people shivering, etc, after having received it.

Yes, that is what happens, with the imperative word being "think". What more could a spirit want than the key to your thoughts. When we think about information (whether it comes from memory or external sources such as the bible or people), we must have bias. This bias is determined by the attitude. For instance I once wondered whether the bible was getting me in trouble and I went and asked God whether I should stop reading it. You know what He said? "Come back with the right spirit". So the spirit does have a huge impact on the mind's performance.

Good point. I agree.

You contrast and compare what you see, hear, etc, with Gods word and thus can pinpoint whether or not something is of/from God or not.

FYI I've grown beyond that stage, I now just trust God 100% that my thoughts are safe in His hands. If I have any concerns I will ask Him.

But although a great thing to be grounded in God's Word, simply reading the bible, as I see it, doesn't automatically fill you with the Holy Spirit or give you faith.

Bang on. This is why my boss claims to know the bible inside out yet be atheist. He was raised Catholic. Maybe one day he'll flip the switch. I've been careful not to tread on his toes, I don't think there's anything I can do to help him except be an example of a good Christian who doesn't shovel it down his throat. Different people have different needs.

You're very mature in thought, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, do you have a goal?

 

[razeontherock]

even if it's not written, and all we have are the instances where every time someone received the Spirit, they spoke in tongues

That is NOT what we have. Yes, I have heard that claim too, but it is false. Make a point of looking for exceptions on your next read through of the NT beginning with Acts and you'll find the exceptions. (There are also people on CF that can help you locate it quicker)