On what basis Does God Elect?

[washedagain]

It would seem that some put more faith in John Calvin's Theology of total depravity than God's ability to save lost souls. God can save whomever he wills and he wills to save anyone who asks. Bottom line. If you want to be saved, believe you are saved. Sin could never defeat the all mighty God!

And what part of your belief is not in agreement with Calvin? What you posted above in no way negates Calvins teachings.

 

[Presentist]

If you want to be saved, believe you are saved.

Don't you mean to say "if you want to be saved, repent and believe that Jesus is the Christ that will save you from your sins."

Mark 1:15 -- And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John 3:16 -- For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 11:27 -- She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

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[rturner76]

Then I have no issue with Calvin's theology then. I have interpreted some people's representation of it to seem as though salvation is not available to all who want it and claim their deliverance. I am assuming I have misinterpreted.

 

[rturner76]

Don't you mean to say "if you want to be saved, repent and believe that Jesus is the Christ that will save you from your sins."

Mark 1:15 -- And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

John 3:16 -- For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 11:27 -- She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

.

Yes

 

[heymikey80]

Then I have no issue with Calvin's theology then. I have interpreted some people's representation of it to seem as though salvation is not available to all who want it and claim their deliverance. I am assuming I have misinterpreted.

The issue Calvinism would have with this statement is not that people want salvation -- the issue is that they want salvation and nothing that accompanies it.

Wanting the desirable parts of salvation without the undesirable parts is not wanting salvation -- I'm sure you agree.

 

[rturner76]

The issue Calvinism would have with this statement is not that people want salvation -- the issue is that they want salvation and nothing that accompanies it.

Wanting the desirable parts of salvation without the undesirable parts is not wanting salvation -- I'm sure you agree.

Yes, I would agree. I shouldn't even state it as simply as that. What I (speaking for myself as a believer) want is a relationship with my lord and savior. The one who will guide me and my decisions in this life and the next as the Hymn says. "Lead me guide me along the way, for if you lead me I shall not stray. Lord let me walk each day with thee. Lead me oh Lord lead me"

 

[heymikey80]

To which I'd agree.

As to distinctives, I'd say that because the Lord is the source of all good, this good desire for God is from Him: in this case, His bringing to birth a heart seeking Him.

 

[rturner76]

I don't disagree. I add the believe that we are all invited to accept the good will of the father.

 

[Zeena]

Okay, I know election to be true because the Bible teaches it but where I am still confused is the area of how and why God elects certain individuals and not others.

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

To me thats the only way I can see it and because we are told in the scriptures of warnings against hardening our hearts etc so apparently when God calls we have the choice to respond to his call or to turn away and harden our hearts.

The Apostle Paul said he was chosen because he 'acted ignorantly, in unbelief'.

1 Tim 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

EG; he had a heart for God, though it was unenlightened.

Rom 10:2-3
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[Skala]

Then I have no issue with Calvin's theology then. I have interpreted some people's representation of it to seem as though salvation is not available to all who want it and claim their deliverance. I am assuming I have misinterpreted.

Every single person who wants to be saved can be saved.

That's what calvin believed.

The theology that bears his name (it's not his theology, he didn't invent it) is rather getting to the question of: why do some want to be saved and not others? Is it because God works to change hearts and convert sinners, or because simply some people are smarter than others?

Calvin and the reformers believed it was by God's grace that anyone at all ever wants to be saved to begin with. Nobody, by fallen nature, desires to submit to Christ. It takes a new nature to do that. One that isn't spiritually dead.

 

[nobdysfool]

The Apostle Paul said he was chosen because he 'acted ignorantly, in unbelief'.

1 Tim 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

EG; he had a heart for God, though it was unenlightened.

Rom 10:2-3
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Then it logically follows that you believe that God elects based on some quality within the person. that makes election a reward for right behavior, i.e. works. Sorry, Scripture does not teach this.

 

[Zeena]

Then it logically follows that you believe that God elects based on some quality within the person. that makes election a reward for right behavior, i.e. works. Sorry, Scripture does not teach this.

Every single person who wants to be saved can be saved.

That's what calvin believed.

 

[rturner76]

This exchange about some of Calvin's doctrines has been so much more pleasant than others I have had

 

[Brother Chris]

I agree with every bit of that but my point is that no one will repent or seek God unless it has been granted to him by God the Father.

No one will repent because they do not want to repent. Robert, it's simple, you either want to repent and believe and be saved, or you don't. There is no "I'm trying to repent but God is not letting me or granting it to me." There will be no excuse on the day of judgement. People can not use God's sovereignty as an excuse to continue in their sin and unbelief and not repent.

 

[RobertZ]

No one will repent because they do not want to repent.

Chris I agree with that, but you and I both know that NO ONE repents unless God grants it to him. You yourself would never have repented either had God not drawn you irresistibly to his son. This is what the calvinistic doctrine teaches.

Also again, im not saying anyone can blame God on the day of Judgement for their damnation because that is what we all deserve. Its just that God chooses to save some while leaving the others in their sin and I do not believe for a second you will deny that.

 

[ptomwebster]

Okay, I know election to be true because the Bible teaches it but where I am still confused is the area of how and why God elects certain individuals and not others.

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

To me thats the only way I can see it and because we are told in the scriptures of warnings against hardening our hearts etc so apparently when God calls we have the choice to respond to his call or to turn away and harden our hearts.

The elect were chosen because of what they accomplished in the First Earth and Heaven age.

 

[RobertZ]

The elect were chosen because of what they accomplished in the First Earth and Heaven age.

So they were chosen based upon something they did? I dont think so.

 

[Presentist]

The elect were chosen because of what they accomplished in the First Earth and Heaven age.

Did you come up with that idea on your own, or did you read that in a book or hear a speaker say that?

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[ptomwebster]

Did you come up with that idea on your own, or did you read that in a book or hear a speaker say that?

It is in Scripture.

 

[Zeena]

Chris I agree with that, but you and I both know that NO ONE repents unless God grants it to him. You yourself would never have repented either had God not drawn you irresistibly to his son. This is what the calvinistic doctrine teaches.

Esau repented, but his 'repentance' was not acceptable before God.


For God see's the heart

James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.