On what basis Does God Elect?

[RobertZ]

Okay, I know election to be true because the Bible teaches it but where I am still confused is the area of how and why God elects certain individuals and not others.

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

To me thats the only way I can see it and because we are told in the scriptures of warnings against hardening our hearts etc so apparently when God calls we have the choice to respond to his call or to turn away and harden our hearts.

 

[rturner76]

I believe it is kind of like that. We are given grace by God through the sacrifice of the lamb of God. Having faith that sacrifice is sufficent, we have responded to it. When we do good works in his name we give evidence of our response. Praise the Lord! Washed clean by the blood of the lamb

 

[Brother Chris]

Okay, I know election to be true because the Bible teaches it but where I am still confused is the area of how and why God elects certain individuals and not others.

The way I was tought growing up was that God calls and then its up to us to respond to his call, so if this is the case then does God elect upon the basis of knowing who would respond to his offer of salvation and who would not?

To me thats the only way I can see it and because we are told in the scriptures of warnings against hardening our hearts etc so apparently when God calls we have the choice to respond to his call or to turn away and harden our hearts.

The difference is, is that when the elect hear the call, they WILL respond.
The non-elect don't respond and neither do they care or worry that they didn't respond. Like I mentioned before in another post, almost every believer at one point in his/her life has hardened his heart and resisted the Holy Spirit, yet none of us are doomed.

 

[rturner76]

The difference is, is that when the elect hear the call, they WILL respond.

Response is required elect or not, remember that and you'll be fine.

 

[heymikey80]

God chooses. God forgives. God regenerates. God justifies.

The most that we see Scripture saying is that God sets His heart on His people; that God loves His people, that God foreknows people He predestines, and that God has mercy on those He chooses. The dependencies aren't clear, and the choices are essentially His.

We recognize and identify people outwardly on the basis of whether we can see the results of their reliance on Christ. So there's a lot of Scripture dedicated to identifying and discipling people through outward means how to see this in ourselves and in others.

But the real question is where your reliance lies: "And to the one who does not work but relies in him who justifies the ungodly, his reliance is counted as righteousness" Rom 4:5

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

The difference is, is that when the elect hear the call, they WILL respond.
The non-elect don't respond and neither do they care or worry that they didn't respond. Like I mentioned before in another post, almost every believer at one point in his/her life has hardened his heart and resisted the Holy Spirit, yet none of us are doomed.

That raises the question though, how can you tell an elect person from a non elect person? How do you know if you're dealing with an elect person who is just resisting the Holy Spirit and a non elect person who genuinely wants nothing to do with God? And if you spend your whole life trying to win over a non elect person, what does that say about you? What does it say about God? And if salvation is based on grace, then how do you obtain grace if it was never given to you in the first place? If God never loved you first, how are you expected to love back?

If she's a witch, she'll drown. If she's not a witch, kill her when she floats.

 

[Satt]

That raises the question though, how can you tell an elect person from a non elect person? How do you know if you're dealing with an elect person who is just resisting the Holy Spirit and a non elect person who genuinely wants nothing to do with God? And if you spend your whole life trying to win over a non elect person, what does that say about you? What does it say about God?

If she's a witch, she'll drown. If she's not a witch, kill her when she floats.

So what your saying is...
If she weighs the same as a duck...she's floats.
If she floats...she's made of wood.
Since wood burns...SHE'S A WITCH!

BUUUUUUUURN HEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRR!!!!!!!


-sorry couldn't resist

 

[Brother Chris]

That raises the question though, how can you tell an elect person from a non elect person? How do you know if you're dealing with an elect person who is just resisting the Holy Spirit and a non elect person who genuinely wants nothing to do with God? And if you spend your whole life trying to win over a non elect person, what does that say about you? What does it say about God? And if salvation is based on grace, then how do you obtain grace if it was never given to you in the first place? If God never loved you first, how are you expected to love back?

If she's a witch, she'll drown. If she's not a witch, kill her when she floats.

Who is elect or not is not for us to decide or worry about. No one is walking around with an E on there forehead. God still commands all to repent and believe. There is forgiveness and remission of sins to all who repent. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Just preach the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Trust in the sovereignty of God. Continue to pray for those you know who are not saved. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me, WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will not cast out."

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Who is elect or not is not for us to decide or worry about. No one is walking around with an E on there forehead. God still commands all to repent and believe. There is forgiveness and remission of sins to all who repent. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Just preach the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Trust in the sovereignty of God. Continue to pray for those you know who are not saved. Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me, WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me, I will not cast out."

But what if I do want to worry about those not elected? For goodness sake, this is forever we're talking about. These are fellow human beings we're talking about.

Is it not God's intention that all men will be saved (1 timothy 2:4)? It just seems odd that in the same breath God would elect some and not others if He did not all men to be saved.

 

[billybtennessee]

We all know for sure it is in Jesus Christ. John 1:12,13 "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. 13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

We see the view of both sides here, and neither cancels the other. We 'receive', and 'believe'. To these He 'gives power'. It is ALL of God. We just receive and believe.

Concerning Christ, this is our desire, Phil. 3:9,10, I use bold in words, hope it don't offend, 9. And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10, That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death.

Then Phil. 3, from verse 12, I follow after, then verse 13, reaching forth unto those things which are before, and of course verse 14, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Only in Jesus Christ, is it all possible, whichever view we choose. But we don't just sit. 'made conformable, follow after, reaching forth, press toward'. Amen. God Bless.

 

[Brother Chris]

But what if I do want to worry about those not elected? For goodness sake, this is forever we're talking about. These are fellow human beings we're talking about.

Is it not God's intention that all men will be saved (1 timothy 2:4)? It just seems odd that in the same breath God would elect some and not others if He did not all men to be saved.

I know I and others have used the term "non-elect" but it is not a biblical term. You will not find it anywhere in scripture. No one goes to hell because they were not elected; they go to hell because they willfully, deliberately and consciously sinned against God and refused to repent. Therefore God can hold them accountable and judge them for it. Think back to when you were not saved. You deliberately, willfully and consciously sinned against God. If you would have gone to hell, it would have been your fault. But God, who is rich in mercy and grace, caused you to be born again, granted you repentance and faith in your son and forgave all your sins and promised you eternal life. Because you deserve it? No, we all deserve hell for our sins. Instead, we got what we didn't deserve: grace and eternal life. If God doesn't save someone, and He allows them to continue in the sin they have chosen, He has done no wrong. The sinner gets the wages of his sin.

 

[RobertZ]

No one goes to hell because they were not elected; they go to hell because they willfully, deliberately and consciously sinned against God and refused to repent.

But on the same token they cannot go to heaven unless they are elected and they cannot repent unless God grants it to them.

 

[Skala]

But what if I do want to worry about those not elected? For goodness sake, this is forever we're talking about. These are fellow human beings we're talking about.

Is it not God's intention that all men will be saved (1 timothy 2:4)? It just seems odd that in the same breath God would elect some and not others if He did not all men to be saved.

Brother, the fact that God may want to see all people saved does not undo the doctrine of election. Sometimes God's desires are thwarted by God's other desires.

For example, he may desire to see all saved, but if you believe salvation is ultimately up to the human will, then God's desire to leave salvation in man's hands has overridden his desire to save all.

On the other hand if you believe God elects who will be saved, then you believe that God's desire to make the decision himself, for his own glory and so that he gets all the credit and removes ground for human boasting (Eph 2, 1 Cor, etc), then yet again, one of God's desires has overridden his desire to see all saved.

The point is, no matter what one believes, God's desires are overridden by His other desires.

That said, consider Paul's attitude for evangelism:

"I endure all things for the sake of the elect so that they may be saved" 2 Tim 2:10

Paul, one of the greatest evanglelists, who endured much persecutation, says he endures it all because his desire is ultimately to see the elect saved.

Therefore, election drives evangelism. It is the motivation for evangelism. God has people out there that he reaches through means of the gospel. It is a great honor for us to be used by God to accomplish his mission of salvation. It is not for us to worry about who the elect are, but preach the gospel faithfully so that God can reach sinners through our words and convert them.

 

[Brother Chris]

But on the same token they cannot go to heaven unless they are elected and they cannot repent unless God grants it to them.

Their inability to repent isn't physical, it is moral. They can not repent, because they WILL NOT repent. God's sovereignty does not eliminate human responsibility. God still commands all to repent, including you. Now follow through with it....

 

[RobertZ]

Their inability to repent isn't physical, it is moral.

I agree.

They can not repent, because they WILL NOT repent.

Ahhhh.... but wait, and neither could you repent unless God had first granted it to you. See what gets me Chris is that calvinism states that we cannot repent of our own will so God must intervene and grant us repentance which btw I do believe is true but everytime I bring this subject up the calvinist will then say the only reason some can not repent is because they will not repent but my question to you and anyone else is how would you expect them to repent unless they are given the grace to repent in the first place?

So you see it all goes back to who God desires to save, his elect.

God's sovereignty does not eliminate human responsibility.

Again, I agree.

God still commands all to repent, including you. Now follow through with it.

Thats right, but at the end of the day only those whom have been elected will be granted true repentance.


BTW-I have been crying out to God for repentance and faith for about 3yrs now, so far I dont really know if its just me trying to repent of my own strength or if its God working in and through me. At any rate bro im not blaming any ones damnation on God at all for everyone and I do mean EVERYONE deserves to go to hell.

We all are Gods creation and as the potter he has the right over the clay to do as he pleases.

 

[Skala]

but everytime I bring this subject up the calvinist will then say the only reason some can not repent is because they will not repent but my question to you and anyone else is how would you expect them to repent unless they are given the grace to repent in the first place?

Robert brother, what you seem to be missing is how the will is affected by the fall. The reason fallen unregenerate man cannot repent is precisely because he will not repent. He doesn't will to repent, he doesn't desire to repent.

The will only chooses what it is inclined towards, desires, etc. The fallen will is against God and against repentance, therefore it cannot choose it (since it cannot choose what it does not desire)

Perhaps an analogy will help.

If you are chained to a chair, you cannot possibly stand up, no matter how much you may desire to stand up.

However, lets say you sit in the most comfortable, magical chair in your life. It feels so good you refuse to stand up. You do not want to stand up, therefore you cannot stand up.

In the first case it was a physical restraint preventing you from doing what you wanted to do.

In the second case, there is no outward constraint, but rather, the constraint was within yourself. You did not want to stand up. It's not as if you wanted to stand up, but couldn't, but rather, you didn't want to.

This second scenario is what the reformers meant by total depravity. The fallen unregenerate will does not want Christ. It is his enemy. It is against righteousness and holiness. It is inclined against it. Therefore it cannot choose in that direction because it does not want to. It's not as if they want to repent, but lack an ability from some outward restraint, but rather, the restraint is inward, in their own will. They are doing exactly what they want to do: reject the gospel.

 

[RobertZ]

Robert brother, what you seem to be missing is how the will is affected by the fall. The reason fallen unregenerate man cannot repent is precisely because he will not repent. He doesn't will to repent, he doesn't desire to repent.

The will only chooses what it is inclined towards, desires, etc. The fallen will is against God and against repentance, therefore it cannot choose it (since it cannot choose what it does not desire)

Perhaps an analogy will help.

If you are chained to a chair, you cannot possibly stand up, no matter how much you may desire to stand up.

However, lets say you sit in the most comfortable, magical chair in your life. It feels so good you refuse to stand up. You do not want to stand up, therefore you cannot stand up.

In the first case it was a physical restraint preventing you from doing what you wanted to do.

In the second case, there is no outward constraint, but rather, the constraint was within yourself. You did not want to stand up. It's not as if you wanted to stand up, but couldn't, but rather, you didn't want to.

This second scenario is what the reformers meant by total depravity. The fallen unregenerate will does not want Christ. It is his enemy. It is against righteousness and holiness. It is inclined against it. Therefore it cannot choose in that direction because it does not want to. It's not as if they want to repent, but lack an ability from some outward restraint, but rather, the restraint is inward, in their own will. They are doing exactly what they want to do: reject the gospel.

I agree with every bit of that but my point is that no one will repent or seek God unless it has been granted to him by God the Father.

 

[washedagain]

=Lord Herdsetk;58428922]That raises the question though, how can you tell an elect person from a non elect person?

You can't until the elect submits to the will of God.

How do you know if you're dealing with an elect person who is just resisting the Holy Spirit and a non elect person who genuinely wants nothing to do with God?

You really don't know what your dealing with... that is why God says that we are to be fishers of men. If we knew... we would be fishers of just certain men. But we are to go to the whole world and preach the gospel.

And if you spend your whole life trying to win over a non elect person, what does that say about you?

It says that you are faithful and a doer of the word. It shows your level of commitment and love for your fellow man.

What does it say about God?

His will be done.

And if salvation is based on grace, then how do you obtain grace if it was never given to you in the first place?

By faith.

If God never loved you first, how are you expected to love back?

Your not.

 

[washedagain]

=Lord Herdsetk;58432921]But what if I do want to worry about those not elected? For goodness sake, this is forever we're talking about. These are fellow human beings we're talking about.

The word of God tells us not to worry but to present your needs with prayer and duplications. All YOU can do is pray for them. Let God handle the rest.

Is it not God's intention that all men will be saved (1 timothy 2:4)?

The word is "desire" God desires that all men be saved... but you will notice it does not say, It is his WILL. If it were His will, His will will be done.

There is a sharp difference between will and desire.

By using the word "intention" when speaking of God is like making a god of your own... for God does not have intentions... He either does something or does not. There is no intentions with God.... It makes him arbitrary and presents an understanding that he could be a weak god.... IE "God intended to do ABC and D but in the end, he couldn't or didn't." That is not the God of the bible. Perhaps you simply chose a poor word to express your question?

It just seems odd that in the same breath God would elect some and not others if He did not all men to be saved.

Again, you need to read the verse for what it says... It never says that it is His WILL. Only His desire...

 

[rturner76]

It would seem that some put more faith in John Calvin's Theology of total depravity than God's ability to save lost souls. God can save whomever he wills and he wills to save anyone who asks. Bottom line. If you want to be saved, believe you are saved. Sin could never defeat the all mighty God!