A Calvinist in an Arminian Congregation

[Walter Kovacs]

It's a two way street...but ultimately truth is more important than what we like, or at least is should be. Anything that stomps on my pride...hurts...and some of us (like me) require more stomping

IMO the entire Bible stomps on pride well enough...



...without Calvin

 

[heymikey80]

IMO the entire Bible stomps on pride well enough...

...without Calvin

If only the entire Bible were considered we wouldn't need Calvin(ists) to point it out.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

probably because its a bad doctrine, This should of been apparent the day folks started calling themselves "Calvinist" if they had read their bibles they would of known even this sectarianism was error, But I guess once you start down the path of error, one just leads to another, just look what happen to Catholicism

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

probably because its a bad doctrine, This should of been apparent the day folks started calling themselves "Calvinist" if they had read their bibles they would of known even this sectarianism was error, But I guess once you start down the path of error, one just leads to another, just look what happen to Catholicism

For reals, check out this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7541774/ pointing to hundreds of errors

 

[kdj]

Seems the liberal, humanist, man-centered times we have been living in for quite a while now cannot abide the sovereign God concept. " It's just got to be up to me".

 

[Walter Kovacs]

I prefer reading the Institutes for an explanation of the DoG, honestly. Calvin don't pull no punches.

 

[kenrapoza]

probably because its a bad doctrine, This should of been apparent the day folks started calling themselves "Calvinist"

What do you mean by this?

 

[JasonLibertad]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

I would say that Jesus summed it up perfectly when he said in Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The Arminian view of choice goes against the grain of scripture. It is a "me" centered religion. What can God do for me? What can God do for you? Salvation is not enough, no they "come" to Jesus to fix all "their" personal problems. You can see the recurring theme here....right? They use God as a personal butler for all their issues without properly praising Him for who he is the Sovereign God of Grace, Mercy and Truth!

If you continue in Matthew chapter 6, Jesus goes on to talk about his Sovereignty over everything.
Why do they have this wrong perception of God, even though it is clearly stated throughout the whole of scriptures. From God choosing Abraham to the book of Revelation. God chooses, he is sovereign.

Here is why:
Prior to Matthew 6:24 Christ speaks of the light of the body is the eye and how if the eye is clear the whole body shall be full of light but if the eye is foggy, the whole body shall be full of darkness. The unregenerate does not have the eyes to see nor ears to hear what the Master says.

When God opens your eyes, you will clearly see the Truth and the Truth will set you free. Many in Arminian-minded churches, as I once was have been indoctrinated in their cursed sayings of "Let-Go, Let God" and "Open your heart and accept Him" giving all the power to "man" so when the scriptures are read in this foggy light you can not make sense of it and there are contradictions. But when your eyes are opened you will truly see the Word of God for what it is "Salvation is of the Lord".

 

[Tommy_S]

@Tommy_S

What is the English translation for Θωμᾶς χιόνισπίτι........ before I reply to anything else.

It is a rough translation of my name.

 

[spiritman1]

What do you mean by this?

He means just to say I follow Paul or I follow Apollos or I follow Calvin, is completely in error, and Calvin himself should of put and end to it at its very inception, begging his followers not to name themselves after him, but pride is a hard master to lose, and allowing this to continue sheds alot of light on this mans character. Imagine this same thing happening today, "I'm Billy Grahaminist or a Benny Hinist, or fill in the blank of some popular preacher of todays culture, whether true or false in their teaching, this order of sectarianism (the ISMS) is completely in error of biblical teaching

 

[kenrapoza]

Perhaps that is what was meant, but that doesn't explain the comment about it being "bad doctrine".

 

[file13]

Perfectly stated!

This!

 

[cygnusx1]

Do you think it's possible that the vast majority of Arminians are unsaved?

who can say ? it's possible .

here's the crux of the matter ;

if Calvinism , or "The doctrines of Grace" is just a systematic ordering of the Gospel , which I and most Calvinists agree is the case , then those who are opposed , MUST be , in some measure opposed to the Gospel .

Can Christians be opposed to the Gospel and still be saved ?

Howabout the promise that the elect shall not be (ultimately) deceived ?

I know I am opening a can of worms here , but its a sincere question.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

who can say ? it's possible .

here's the crux of the matter ;

if Calvinism , or "The doctrines of Grace" is just a systematic ordering of the Gospel , which I and most Calvinists agree is the case , then those who are opposed , MUST be , in some measure opposed to the Gospel .

Can Christians be opposed to the Gospel and still be saved ?

Howabout the promise that the elect shall not be (ultimately) deceived ?

I know I am opening a can of worms here , but its a sincere question.

If Calvinism was a perfect interpretation of Scripture I might agree. But it's not. Calvinism is an imperfect system of interpreting Scripture developed by imperfect men; every theology is like this. Calvin would have been the first to tell you that. So no, opposition to Calvinism is not opposition to the Gospel, it is opposition to Calvins way of interpreting Scripture.

 

[the particular baptist]

Really, care to point how the Doctrines of Grace are not perfect ? I say Doctrines of Grace, not Calvinism. The DoG were taught long before Calvin, say all the way back to Paul ? The OT ?

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Really, care to point how the Doctrines of Grace are not perfect ?

Not really, people way smarter than me have been doing that for a very long time.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

If Calvinism was a perfect interpretation of Scripture I might agree. But it's not. Calvinism is an imperfect system of interpreting Scripture developed by imperfect men; every theology is like this. Calvin would have been the first to tell you that. So no, opposition to Calvinism is not opposition to the Gospel, it is opposition to Calvins way of interpreting Scripture.

All men have theological blindspots -- we all see the Scriptures through the interpretive lenses of fallen men. There are basic truths that, if one departs from them, he has departed from the Faith once delivered to the saints. Predestination is not one of those items.

The Apostle Paul understood very well that predestination, as he discusses it in Romans 9, was going to bother the saints at Rome when they heard his letter read to them, this is very clear in the context of the letter.

If Paul had to explain the Doctrine to Christians that he knew would find it hard to swallow, it should be clear that these very same saints were saints and did not know/understand these views before Paul wrote them.

I will defend the Doctrines of Grace in any debate, but the idea that one has to hold to them to be saved, is a gross misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Walter Kovacs]

All men have theological blindspots -- we all see the Scriptures through the interpretive lenses of fallen men. There are basic truths that, if one departs from them, he has departed from the Faith once delivered to the saints.

I will defend the Doctrines of Grace in any debate, but the idea that one has to hold to them to be saved, is a gross misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'll drink to that

http://www.izun.eu/sites/default/files/images/stories/clanky/beer_toast1.jpg

The Apostle Paul understood very well that predestination, as he discusses it in Romans 9 was going to bother the saints at Rome when they heard his letter read to them, this is very clear in the context of the letter.

No one argues that predestination isn't Biblical; what is argued is what it means. Pretty much all commentators and theologians who have written on Romans have affirmed that it doesn't mean it in the Calvinistic sense, and I don't say that to 'win by the numbers' so to speak; only that it is not a universally accepted interpretation of Scripture; far from it, most major Christian trajectories reject it (along with most of the TULIP, but that's another argument).

 

[the particular baptist]

Not really, people way smarter than me have been doing that for a very long time.

To me, the smart people you speak of, are false teachers. No offense.

 

[McWilliams]

Just consider all the good that Christ did while he lived on earth, the healings, miracles and such. Did all the people love Him for that? No, they hated Him, unless they were in the group of His followers. Why should we expect different treatment! 'All who would live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted'.
How did He react? He looked beyond the cross to the glory He would share with His Father. This should be our response, to look beyond irritations, mistreatment and persecution and anticipate the wonders of living with Him in eternity! Soli deo gloria!!