A Calvinist in an Arminian Congregation

[Tommy_S]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

 

[the particular baptist]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

Romans 8:7a "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God.."

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Do you think it's possible that the vast majority of Arminians are unsaved?

 

[Faith.Man]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

I can't explain it, but it is quite evident if you read some of the threads that there's a bias against reformed theology and Calvinism.

 

[the particular baptist]

Do you think it's possible that the vast majority of Arminians are unsaved?

Without using labels, anyone attributing any part of salvation to their own efforts, exertions, decisions, is as lost as the day is long. When a man has a grace wrought understanding that he is a worm and less than nothing, and that if he is thrown in hell it would be right, and the Lord Jesus reveals Himself in that man, that man in no way will attribute salvation to himself, a decision he has made, any efforts or reformation of life, not in words only, but in a real experiential way profess in heart, mind, life, and conversation that salvation is wholly of the Lord. Im not talking about articulating TULIP, im talking about a regeneration and conversion testimony that articulates the free sovereign grace of God. Such a mann when and if he hears the truth as it is in Jesus with respect to His sovereignty over all things, that
He is the first cause of all things, will bow before that truth, not hate it.

 

[Aconba]

...

 

[hedrick]

No need to get insulting. Most Arminians find it hard to wrap their mind around compatibilism. Without that, the Reformed position appears to deny human responsibility and even faith.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The doctrines of grace shatter all pride, and once the shell of pride is gone, what is left is not pretty. What is revealed is that we are stinky, rotten, filthy, wretched, sinners, that Christ alone is our righteousness, that if there be any good in us, it is Christ. It feels good to think we have some kind of role, a say, even if it's not thought of in that manner. Unfortunately, they confuse sovereign common grace with sovereign saving grace. One of the reasons I think, is that we see unregenerate people doing things that are "good" in our eyes...even if they do not please God. We see that, generally speaking, even the worst of people seem to have a little "good" in them, at least it appears that way in our eyes on the outside. But in the Bible we read that whatever is not of faith is sin, and it's not a generic faith, but faith in the God of Christianity, faith in Christ. Calvinism has a way of peeling away self-righteousness and spiritual pride. That is what Sola Deo Gloria and a high view of sovereignty will do in practice. Most people look down on this, the notion of stripping self-worth, of trusting in God and not one's heart, is utterly disgusting to them. We like to think well of ourselves, our natural instinct is to defend everything we say and do. Reminds me of the words by a favorite musician of mine...

We are frail, we are fearfully and wonderfully made
Forged in the fires of human passion
Choking on the fumes of selfish rage
And with these our hells and our heavens
So few inches apart
We must be awfully small
And not as strong as we think we are

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Romans 8:7a "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God.."

Spiritual warfare is not uncommon to believers, I guess what I am saying is, just because we have a sovereign grace understanding of salvation, does not mean we will not struggle with carnal mindedness. For the Christian, the carnal mind seeks autonomy, while the spiritual mind seeks theonomy, and these two are at odds and in constant battle within and when played out in application. It is Christ whom gives us victory over the old carnal mind, when there is victory. For the unregenerate, in everything they think, talk, and walk in an autonomous mindset. To paraphrase a short quote from Van Til, "they think they get it on their own", all while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[the particular baptist]

Spiritual warfare is not uncommon to believers, I guess what I am saying is, just because we have a sovereign grace understanding of salvation, does not mean we will not struggle with carnal mindedness.

Thats true. I understand the two natures of the believer but i understand the carnal mind in Romans 8:7a to be the unregenerate mind.

 

[JasonLibertad]

The doctrines of grace shatter all pride, and once the shell of pride is gone, what is left is not pretty. What is revealed is that we are stinky, rotten, filthy, wretched, sinners, that Christ alone is our righteousness, that if there be any good in us, it is Christ. It feels good to think we have some kind of role, a say, even if it's not thought of in that manner. Unfortunately, they confuse sovereign common grace with sovereign saving grace. One of the reasons I think, is that we see unregenerate people doing things that are "good" in our eyes...even if they do not please God. We see that, generally speaking, even the worst of people seem to have a little "good" in them, at least it appears that way in our eyes on the outside. But in the Bible we read that whatever is not of faith is sin, and it's not a generic faith, but faith in the God of Christianity, faith in Christ. Calvinism has a way of peeling away self-righteousness and spiritual pride. That is what Sola Deo Gloria and a high view of sovereignty will do in practice. Most people look down on this, the notion of stripping self-worth, of trusting in God and not one's heart, is utterly disgusting to them. We like to think well of ourselves, our natural instinct is to defend everything we say and do. Reminds me of the words by a favorite musician of mine...

We are frail, we are fearfully and wonderfully made
Forged in the fires of human passion
Choking on the fumes of selfish rage
And with these our hells and our heavens
So few inches apart
We must be awfully small
And not as strong as we think we are

Perfectly stated!

 

[twin1954]

I have leaned toward the sovereignty of God for some time now in regard to salvation, but I have noticed some animosity among my brethren when it comes to this point of view. I am a Baptist and most of the churches in my area, including mine, leans more to an Arminian view. The problem is, this issue should not cause division but I cannot help to feel that I am looked down upon because I believe God is sovereign in salvation. Among my Arminian brethren there seems to be a bit of hostility when it comes to the Doctrines of Grace, as defined by the Bible. Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

Arminianism is the religion of natural men, a natural religion. It comes from man's natural way of thinking and naturally rebels against the rule of God. It is the harlot of Prov. 7 and the great harlot of Rev. Natural religion always exalts man above his place and seeks to tear God from His throne. Natural religion is always about outward things( do this don't do that, act this way and not that way, this thing is sin and that thing isn't) instead of inward faith in the person and work of Christ alone. Natural religion focuses on man and not on God. Natural religion imagines a god which is subject to man and not the other way around. Natural religion hates the God of truth. That is why there is such animosity against you for believing in the sovereignty of God.

 

[BrotherBob]

For me it boils down to two views. Salvation for the Arminianist depends on what man does. For the Calvinist it what God did. One is man centered and the other is God centered. Grace is hard to accept for man for it assaults the ego.

You might be interested in an article from two professors at Indiana Wesleyan University. durywriting.com/keith/wesley.the.calvinist.htm

 

[BrotherBob]

For me it boils down to two views. Salvation for the Arminianist depends on what man does. For the Calvinist it what God did. One is man centered and the other is God centered. Grace is hard to accept for man for it assaults the ego.

You might be interested in an article from two professors at Indiana Wesleyan University. durywriting.com/keith/wesley.the.calvinist.htm

 

[student ad x]

@Tommy_S

What is the English translation for Θωμᾶς χιόνισπίτι........ before I reply to anything else.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Is there anyone who can explain to me why there is such hostility?

My guess is because people don't like some of the ideas of Calvinism, a point I well sympathize with. Also, not all non-Calvinists are carnal, unregenerate heathen.

 

[student ad x]

........... not all non-Calvinists are carnal, unregenerate heathen.

....... "objection" noted

 

[Walter Kovacs]

....... "objection" noted

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

My guess is because people don't like some of the ideas of Calvinism, a point I well sympathize with.

It's a two way street...but ultimately truth is more important than what we like, or at least is should be. Anything that stomps on my pride...hurts...and some of us (like me) require more stomping.

Also, not all non-Calvinists are carnal, unregenerate heathen.

I wholehearedly agree my brother. It is good to desire to learn as many biblical truths as God will allow us.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

The doctrines of grace shatter all pride, and once the shell of pride is gone, what is left is not pretty. What is revealed is that we are stinky, rotten, filthy, wretched, sinners, that Christ alone is our righteousness, that if there be any good in us, it is Christ. It feels good to think we have some kind of role, a say, even if it's not thought of in that manner. Unfortunately, they confuse sovereign common grace with sovereign saving grace. One of the reasons I think, is that we see unregenerate people doing things that are "good" in our eyes...even if they do not please God. We see that, generally speaking, even the worst of people seem to have a little "good" in them, at least it appears that way in our eyes on the outside. But in the Bible we read that whatever is not of faith is sin, and it's not a generic faith, but faith in the God of Christianity, faith in Christ. Calvinism has a way of peeling away self-righteousness and spiritual pride. That is what Sola Deo Gloria and a high view of sovereignty will do in practice. Most people look down on this, the notion of stripping self-worth, of trusting in God and not one's heart, is utterly disgusting to them. We like to think well of ourselves, our natural instinct is to defend everything we say and do. Reminds me of the words by a favorite musician of mine...

We are frail, we are fearfully and wonderfully made
Forged in the fires of human passion
Choking on the fumes of selfish rage
And with these our hells and our heavens
So few inches apart
We must be awfully small
And not as strong as we think we are

I've seen them bolster quite a bit of pride as well.