elephants unable to support own weight according to YEC 'scientist'

Status
Not open for further replies.

SLP

Senior Member
May 29, 2002
2,369
660
✟21,532.00
Faith
Atheist
Observe the skeleton of this african elephant:

skeleton.jpg


Please note that it lacks a direct connection between any of the bones of its forelimb and its axial skeleton (vertebral column or ribcage)*.

According to YEC anatomist David Menton, this situation is not possible:

"The limbs of tetrapods share similar characteristic features. ...In order to support the weight of the body on land, and permit walking, the most proximal bones of the limbs must be securely attached to the rest of the body. The humerus of the forelimb articulates with the pectoral girdle which includes the scapula (shoulder blade) and the clavicle (collar bone). The only bony attachment of the pectoral girdle to the body is the clavicle...

The humerus of the forelimb articulates with the pectoral girdle which includes the scapula (shoulder blade) and the clavicle (collar bone). The only bony attachment of the pectoral girdle to the body is the clavicle.
...

Not only are the pelvic fins of all fish small, but they’re not even attached to the axial skeleton (vertebral column) and thus can’t bear weight on land."

and in another article on the same issue:

"...the bones for Panderichthys, Tiktaalik and the coelacanth are imbedded in the muscle, and are not attached to the axial skeleton, which you would find in a reptile or amphibian (and which would be necessary for weight-bearing appendages). "


Take another look at our elephant.

It is a tetrapod.
It has no clavicle.
Its forelimbs do not attach directly to the axial skeleton AT ALL.

Recall what YEC anatomist Menton wrote:

"...the most proximal bones of the limbs must be securely attached to the rest of the body"

The linked to article is Menton's atempt to diminish the relevance of the fossil Tiktaalik, a proposed transition from fish to amphibian. Menton apparently really wanted the reader to think that there was no way that Tiktaalik, who might have weighed a few pounds, could have supported itself on land and so coul dnto have been a transition, but in doing so, he engaged in some pretty silly embellishment of the facts.

So, YECs, was Menton wrong, or are you going to circle the wagons?




*Elephants are not the only large terrestrial animals lacking the connection that Menton proclaims "must" be present - dogs, cats, bears, etc., all lack a direct connection between their forelimbs and their axial skeleton.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bushido216

SLP

Senior Member
May 29, 2002
2,369
660
✟21,532.00
Faith
Atheist
Nah. I think you pretty much rolled up their arguments and smoked them.

Thanks!

I do enjoy seeing how even when confronted with black and white facts like this, YECs either simply refuse to address it or will actually try to claim that their hero is still somehow correct.

Weird.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Observe the skeleton of this african elephant:

skeleton.jpg


Please note that it lacks a direct connection between any of the bones of its forelimb and its axial skeleton (vertebral column or ribcage)*.

According to YEC anatomist David Menton, this situation is not possible:

"The limbs of tetrapods share similar characteristic features. ...In order to support the weight of the body on land, and permit walking, the most proximal bones of the limbs must be securely attached to the rest of the body. The humerus of the forelimb articulates with the pectoral girdle which includes the scapula (shoulder blade) and the clavicle (collar bone). The only bony attachment of the pectoral girdle to the body is the clavicle...

The humerus of the forelimb articulates with the pectoral girdle which includes the scapula (shoulder blade) and the clavicle (collar bone). The only bony attachment of the pectoral girdle to the body is the clavicle.
...

Not only are the pelvic fins of all fish small, but they’re not even attached to the axial skeleton (vertebral column) and thus can’t bear weight on land."

and in another article on the same issue:

"...the bones for Panderichthys, Tiktaalik and the coelacanth are imbedded in the muscle, and are not attached to the axial skeleton, which you would find in a reptile or amphibian (and which would be necessary for weight-bearing appendages). "


Take another look at our elephant.

It is a tetrapod.
It has no clavicle.
Its forelimbs do not attach directly to the axial skeleton AT ALL.


Recall what YEC anatomist Menton wrote:

"...the most proximal bones of the limbs must be securely attached to the rest of the body"

The linked to article is Menton's atempt to diminish the relevance of the fossil Tiktaalik, a proposed transition from fish to amphibian. Menton apparently really wanted the reader to think that there was no way that Tiktaalik, who might have weighed a few pounds, could have supported itself on land and so coul dnto have been a transition, but in doing so, he engaged in some pretty silly embellishment of the facts.

So, YECs, was Menton wrong, or are you going to circle the wagons?




*Elephants are not the only large terrestrial animals lacking the connection that Menton proclaims "must" be present - dogs, cats, bears, etc., all lack a direct connection between their forelimbs and their axial skeleton.

So, how does the elephant support its weight?

Please bear with me that I am not an anatomist. So, be considerate when explain.
 
Upvote 0

Agonaces of Susa

Evolution is not science: legalize creationism.
Nov 18, 2009
3,605
50
San Diego
Visit site
✟11,653.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
So, how does the elephant support its weight?
An elephant supports it's own weight due to Almighty God's divine Providence.

Our blessed LORD allows elephants to walk via divine intervention and miracleworks.

"Granted, then, that certain transformations do happen, it is essential that we should regard them in the philosophic manner of fairy tales, not in the unphilosophic manner of science and the 'Laws of Nature.' When we are asked why eggs turn into birds or fruits fall in autumn, we must answer exactly as the fairy godmother would answer if Cinderella asked her why mice turned into horses or her clothes fell from her at twelve o'clock. We must answer that it is MAGIC. It is not a 'law,' for we do not understand it's general formula." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

"All the terms used in the science books, 'law,' 'necessity,' 'order,' 'tendency,' and so on, are really unintellectual .... The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, 'charm,' 'spell,' 'enchantment.' They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched. The sun shines because it is bewitched." -- G.K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909
 
Upvote 0

LifeToTheFullest!

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2004
5,069
155
✟6,295.00
Faith
Agnostic
An elephant supports it's own weight due to Almighty God's divine Providence.

Our blessed LORD allows elephants to walk via divine intervention and miracleworks.

"Granted, then, that certain transformations do happen, it is essential that we should regard them in the philosophic manner of fairy tales, not in the unphilosophic manner of science and the 'Laws of Nature.' When we are asked why eggs turn into birds or fruits fall in autumn, we must answer exactly as the fairy godmother would answer if Cinderella asked her why mice turned into horses or her clothes fell from her at twelve o'clock. We must answer that it is MAGIC. It is not a 'law,' for we do not understand it's general formula." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

"All the terms used in the science books, 'law,' 'necessity,' 'order,' 'tendency,' and so on, are really unintellectual .... The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, 'charm,' 'spell,' 'enchantment.' They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched. The sun shines because it is bewitched." -- G.K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909
The lord moves in mysterious ways.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rockaction

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2010
747
23
✟1,048.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
An elephant supports it's own weight due to Almighty God's divine Providence.

Our blessed LORD allows elephants to walk via divine intervention and miracleworks.

"Granted, then, that certain transformations do happen, it is essential that we should regard them in the philosophic manner of fairy tales, not in the unphilosophic manner of science and the 'Laws of Nature.' When we are asked why eggs turn into birds or fruits fall in autumn, we must answer exactly as the fairy godmother would answer if Cinderella asked her why mice turned into horses or her clothes fell from her at twelve o'clock. We must answer that it is MAGIC. It is not a 'law,' for we do not understand it's general formula." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

"All the terms used in the science books, 'law,' 'necessity,' 'order,' 'tendency,' and so on, are really unintellectual .... The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, 'charm,' 'spell,' 'enchantment.' They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched. The sun shines because it is bewitched." -- G.K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

This takes the cake. You are the most dedicated Poe on earth!
 
Upvote 0

matthewgar

Newbie
Jun 18, 2010
699
25
powell river BC. Canada.
✟15,965.00
Faith
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Others
yeah. A poe or a troll. he cant be real.

Yeah, I say again we ignore him, he seems to be intent on trolling the boards, and derails every thread he's in. Unless he provides something useful ontopic were just wasting our time.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SLP

Senior Member
May 29, 2002
2,369
660
✟21,532.00
Faith
Atheist
yeah. A poe or a troll. he cant be real.
And to think I actually wasted time on him/her....

On the other hand, maybe this explains why Yahweh is so impotent to do any real good in the world - too busy helping elephants and bears and lions support their weight on land because he screwed up their 'design.'
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Muscles - and plenty of them. Same as bears, cats (including the big cats), etc.

So you are saying that between leg and and body are a whole bunch of muscles?

I kind of doubt it. Would bone connection be much better?

I cut chicken. It seems to me the body of a chicken rested on a socket for the leg bone. And I guess chicken has a similar structure to dinosaurs.

Why are mammals (cats, bears, as you said) different?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.