Universalism

[preistsplace]

From the Records of the Life of Rev. John Murray (long out of copyright and available on Google Books). A dialog with a young lady:

"Why, sir, is Jesus Christ the Saviour of any unbelievers?

No, madam.

"Why, then, should any unbeliever believe, that Jesus is his Saviour, if he be not his Saviour?"

I say he is not the Saviour of any one, until he believes.

"Then, if Jesus be not the Saviour of the unbeliever until he believes, the unbeliever is called upon to believe a lie. It appears to me, sir, that Jesus is the complete Saviour of unbelievers; and that unbelievers are called upon to believe the truth; and that, by believing they are saved, in their own apprehension, saved from all those dreadful fears, which are consequent upon a state of conscious condemnation."

No, madam; you are dreadfully, I trust not fatally, misled. Jesus never was, nor never will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever.

"Do you think Jesus is your Saviour, sir?"

I hope he is.

"Were you always a believer, sir?"

No, madam.

"Then you were once an unbeliever; that is, you once believed, that Jesus Christ was not your Saviour. Now, as you say, he never was, nor never will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever; as you were once an unbeliever, he never can be your Saviour."

He never was my Saviour till I believed.

"Did he never die for you, till you believed, sir?"
​

good post

 

[preistsplace]

For your last part...

It's like me making cookies for a party. I make some very large ones and others much smaller. I know for a fact the small ones will burn and will be thrown away, but decide to cook them anyway.

Why even make small ones? Why not split the small ones and put them with the big ones, or put all the small ones together to make a big one.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of universalism, b/c Jesus himself clearly talks about hell and eternal torment, and etc, but I hope somehow everyone gets into heaven. Though, I guess people will just say that would be a fairly tale, though there are non-believers who say what we believe is a fairly tale. Go figure.

I know where you are coming from.why make the small cookiesor the unrepentant sinner when you know they will be burnt up in the end. Even here it is better for us that we were the cookie it is burnt up and thrown away. The traditional veiw is that unrepentant man dies and is tortured forever(some choose to say this as barred from the presence of God, but are of course saying the same things. God doesn't make mistakes he didn't create the world and then lose control of mankind to sin . He knew from the beginning how things would turn out. Prayerfully consider these things.

Blessings in Christ

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by CaDan

From the Records of the Life of Rev. John Murray (long out of copyright and available on Google Books). A dialog with a young lady:
​

This is your proof that all people are saved?

How about we have scripture proof? This type of
human reasoning is poor for key reasons.

God can very well die for sin, but it is NOT AVAILABLE
until there is BELIEF in Jesus Christ in this lifetime;
Salvation is by FAITH, not by Jesus' death alone.

God places stipulations on many things -
here's one:
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And as analogies go, the truth is that until one recieves a
gift, it is not theirs.

How many of us have gotten gift cards to stores we never shop
at or want to shop at? I have!

So you get a $50 gift card but never go to the store to
pick out the item that you want... (which I've done a few times -
or give it away to someone else)...
what did you recieve from that store?
NOTHING.
What happens when the gift card expires? (ie death)
YOU GET NOTHING even tho it was a gift provided for you.

What happens when you refuse any gift you don't want?
YOU DON'T HAVE IT.

Sorry but this just doesn't work - sounds lovely and all,
but man has a responsibility in life to recieve the blood
atonement for their soul; otherwise, they die in their sin
and there is no covering for it that they recieved.

An unbelieving crowd:
John 8
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me,and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Belief (ie FAITH) is mandatory for salvation.
Why does God have to bother to even tell people they MUST be
born again or repent, if they get the same message later when they die?
How silly and pointless - esp. when He already knows the majority
will not!

They "die in their sins" because they do not believe, and lack
atonement; being responsible to pay for their own sin when they
rejected the covering of their sin.
Scripture is replete with these facts
​

 

[CaDan]

It is delicious cake.

 

[2 King]

which leads me to ask. is Open Theism controversial?

 

[CaDan]

which leads me to ask. is Open Theism controversial?

It used to be. Hard to tell now.

 

[Rajni]

From the Records of the Life of Rev. John Murray (long out of copyright and available on Google Books). A dialog with a young lady:

"Why, sir, is Jesus Christ the Saviour of any unbelievers?

No, madam.

"Why, then, should any unbeliever believe, that Jesus is his Saviour, if he be not his Saviour?"

I say he is not the Saviour of any one, until he believes.

"Then, if Jesus be not the Saviour of the unbeliever until he believes, the unbeliever is called upon to believe a lie. It appears to me, sir, that Jesus is the complete Saviour of unbelievers; and that unbelievers are called upon to believe the truth; and that, by believing they are saved, in their own apprehension, saved from all those dreadful fears, which are consequent upon a state of conscious condemnation."

No, madam; you are dreadfully, I trust not fatally, misled. Jesus never was, nor never will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever.

"Do you think Jesus is your Saviour, sir?"

I hope he is.

"Were you always a believer, sir?"

No, madam.

"Then you were once an unbeliever; that is, you once believed, that Jesus Christ was not your Saviour. Now, as you say, he never was, nor never will be, the Saviour of any unbeliever; as you were once an unbeliever, he never can be your Saviour."

He never was my Saviour till I believed.

"Did he never die for you, till you believed, sir?"​

This reminds me of a similar, rather humorous dialog: "Wait ... What?"



>

 

[Nadiine]

It is delicious cake.

huh?

 

[Nadiine]

This reminds me of a similar, rather humorous dialog: "Wait ... What?"



>

I don 't find Christ's warning to repent & be saved
humorous,
That's GOD'S command!

By the way, how SILLY to come here & send warnings that
we have to repent and be born again, . .
when you can just do it when you get there later!

now THAT is humorous

 

[timlamb]

Just a note for those who struggle with finding this world so lovible and wondering why God would create something that would be lost.

When God created everything including man He called it "good" or "very good". But when Jesus walked the earth He said, 'None is good except God", what happened? The fall happened, and things were not how He made them nor were they good.

But we know it wasn't an accident on God's part because scripture teaches these thengs were known before the creation. What was also known was that God would enter time, come as a child and reviel Himself and then make the ultimate sacrifice. So God was prepared before He let man have the choice to sin, to give him the choice of forgiveness and the chance to return to what God intended.

Man is his own enemy. Satan didn't make Adam and Eve sin, he is merely an opportunist, and encourager of sin. Every thing or everyone that does not follow God is an enemy of God, and thus a hinderence to man ever reaching God. God has a genuine Agape Love for His creation want wants to restore it, and the book of revelation describes that restoration. But the same chapter that attempts to describe the amazing restored, or New Earth, exposes the painful truth that not all make it, because not all are willing to be restored. The rest of creation IS described as being purified by fire, God destroys creation by fire before rebuilding it. but the souls of those lost in sin are not destroyed but lost in the second death which is the Lake of Fire.

A strange little discussed fact is that Satan was on the earth before God created man. Satan was cast down to the earth before Adam and eve were in the garden. This curious thing seems to support the gap theory but that would go even further off topic. The point is, God put us on the earth WITH the tempter knowing we would try the same thing Satan tried, to become our own god's. Is the book of Job becoming more real? There would seem to be a real cosmic contest, the deal is, God (being God)is omniciant and Satan is not. God entered into this knowing how it would end and that He would would have what He valued, which is lovers of righteousness. If God would not force the angels to conform to Him why would He make us and do different. God finds something so valuable in us who chose Him that all heaven rejoices for ONE that is saved. That is what He values.

We are invited to become His Children, Agape'd for all eternity. Or we can refuse and God will let us go. You may wish to believe with all your heart that your frends and family believe, even in the last seconds of their lives, but don't hold God ransom to the belief that all will be save. He told us how the world would end and even gave us dimentions for the new one, but He said clear as light:
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Revelation 21:5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This is not a prediction, it is truth and fact. Pray for friends, but look to God and don't be held back by doubting His character...HE WILL DO THE RIGHT THING!! And you will one day understand!

 

[Nadiine]

to Cheala,
since you may have missed the scriptures that flatly
claim you MUST believe, here you go

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ is SAVIOUR - that is His role and title,
IT BY NO MEANS MAKES HIM ONE'S PERSONAL LORD & SAVIOUR
until they repent and believe by faith in Him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It's spelled right out repeatedly, what I find humorous
is the fact that people believe only what they want to
believe despite evidence.

 

[Nadiine]

1. God is able to accomplish what He desires.
2. God desires that all people be saved.
3. Most people will not be saved.
The are all true if God stays true to His character to loving allow his creation to be free.
THIS IS LIKE:
1. I am able to lock my daughter in her room until she is married.
2. I desire that she save herself for marriage.
3. I can't lock my daughter in her room until she is married.
I can do all these because I lovingly allow my daughter to chose.

niceness

 

[Rajni]

I don 't find Christ's warning to repent & be saved
humorous, That's GOD'S command!

You're equivocating. I wasn't referring to "Christ's warning to repent and be saved" as humorous. Please pay attention.

By the way, how SILLY to come here & send warnings that
we have to repent and be born again, . .
when you can just do it when you get there later!

Only those who see no difference between being a believer and being a non-believer would say something like that.

now THAT is humorous

No, that's pretty sad.



.

 

[Rajni]

since you may have missed the scriptures that flatly
claim you MUST believe, here you go

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ is SAVIOUR - that is His role and title,
IT BY NO MEANS MAKES HIM ONE'S PERSONAL LORD & SAVIOUR
until they repent and believe by faith in Him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him:
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Okay, this is probably the zillionth time I’ve said this, but here goes:

Belief, repentance, faith, salvation – all of those things, which are intertwined, are gifts of God. We do not decide of our own power to have these things. We don’t bring them about for ourselves.

Belief:

John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
​

Faith:

Hebrews 12:2 … looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast.
​

Repentance:

Acts5:31God has exalted to his right hand this very man as our Leader and Savior in orderto extend repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, Godhas granted to the Gentilesalsothe repentance that leads to life."

2 Timothy 2:24-26 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
​

It's spelled right out repeatedly, what I find humorous is the fact that people believe only what they want to believe despite evidence.

This is one of those statements that can be used by both sides of the discussion.

 

[Rajni]

Oh back to this - now our Bible isn't God's word to man.

And we wonder where Universalism theology has its underpinnings?

How about Jesus "have you not read?" and quoting scripture after
scripture?
The writers of the NT testify that they eyewitnessed Christ
personally - or were taught by Christ and share the same
doctrines?

Go ahead and claim it's not the Word of God - that only ruins
your theology, not mine.

"Have you not read ... ?"

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

​

"He" -- not "It" -- was with God in the beginning.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

​

The Bible is God-breathed. The Word is God. See the difference?

The Bible is NOT God. I no more worship the Bible than I would worship a statue. That's idolatry.

Even Jesus made the distinction when He said,

John 5:39-40 ~ "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life."​

​

​

.
The

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[timlamb]

Tissue, this was written with you in mind. I hope it helps.

Just a note for those who struggle with finding this world so lovible and wondering why God would create something that would be lost.

When God created everything including man He called it "good" or "very good". But when Jesus walked the earth He said, 'None is good except God", what happened? The fall happened, and things were not how He made them nor were they good.

But we know it wasn't an accident on God's part because scripture teaches these thengs were known before the creation. What was also known was that God would enter time, come as a child and reviel Himself and then make the ultimate sacrifice. So God was prepared before He let man have the choice to sin, to give him the choice of forgiveness and the chance to return to what God intended.

Man is his own enemy. Satan didn't make Adam and Eve sin, he is merely an opportunist, and encourager of sin. Every thing or everyone that does not follow God is an enemy of God, and thus a hinderence to man ever reaching God. God has a genuine Agape Love for His creation want wants to restore it, and the book of revelation describes that restoration. But the same chapter that attempts to describe the amazing restored, or New Earth, exposes the painful truth that not all make it, because not all are willing to be restored. The rest of creation IS described as being purified by fire, God destroys creation by fire before rebuilding it. but the souls of those lost in sin are not destroyed but lost in the second death which is the Lake of Fire.

A strange little discussed fact is that Satan was on the earth before God created man. Satan was cast down to the earth before Adam and eve were in the garden. This curious thing seems to support the gap theory but that would go even further off topic. The point is, God put us on the earth WITH the tempter knowing we would try the same thing Satan tried, to become our own god's. Is the book of Job becoming more real? There would seem to be a real cosmic contest, the deal is, God (being God)is omniciant and Satan is not. God entered into this knowing how it would end and that He would would have what He valued, which is lovers of righteousness. If God would not force the angels to conform to Him why would He make us and do different. God finds something so valuable in us who chose Him that all heaven rejoices for ONE that is saved. That is what He values.

We are invited to become His Children, Agape'd for all eternity. Or we can refuse and God will let us go. You may wish to believe with all your heart that your frends and family believe, even in the last seconds of their lives, but don't hold God ransom to the belief that all will be save. He told us how the world would end and even gave us dimentions for the new one, but He said clear as light:
There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Revelation 21:5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

This is not a prediction, it is truth and fact. Pray for friends, but look to God and don't be held back by doubting His character...HE WILL DO THE RIGHT THING!! And you will one day understand!

 

[2 King]

"Have you not read ... ?"
.

Read what?

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
​

​

That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes I'm sure we know this.

"He" -- not "It" -- was with God in the beginning.

Who said Jesus was the Bible? I'm pretty sure man means of the written "Word" = Bible?

The

Open Theism?

 

[2 King]

It is delicious cake.

huh?

I'm pretty sure he means this: itisdeliciouscake

 

[Nadiine]

I'm pretty sure he means this: itisdeliciouscake

oh.... ok.

I must of missed something somewhere. thanks =)

 

[Rajni]

Read what?

​

That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes I'm sure we know this.

Who said Jesus was the Bible? I'm pretty sure man means of the written "Word" = Bible?

Open Theism?

You might need to backtrack -- this was part of a discussion on what constituted "The Word".


.