Mary as mediatrix?

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isshinwhat

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What is wrong with the symbolism of Mary being a rod from the root of Jesse and Jesus being the fruitful blossom of that branch/rod? It sounds like a family tree to me... If Jesse is the root, and Jesus is the Fruit of the root, who is the rod/branch/twig that bears the fruit?

Here are three translations of Isaiah 11:1.

AND there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.

And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit:

And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.
 
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WarriorAngel

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From the doctor of the Church

Orations (Gregory Nazianzen)


VII. Well, let these things be the amusement of the children of the Greeks and of the demons to whom their folly is due, who turn aside the honour of God to themselves, and divide men in various ways in pursuit of shameful thoughts and fancies, ever since they drove us away from the Tree of Life, by means of the Tree of Knowledge unseasonably and improperly imparted to us, and then assailed us as now weaker than before; carrying clean away the mind, which is the ruling power in us, and opening a door to the passions.

CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apocalypse (Victorinus)
Saint

Actually an interesting thought on Revelation.

But i will go thru it some more - right now i have to run. BBL.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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about the Tree of Life..

I really think that we're all focusing on words too much here. let's ask ourselves the question...how much do they really matter..

Honestly..we all agree that Jesus gives eternal life, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the vine, etc. Saying that Mary is the Tree of Life is just saying that Jesus came from her.."and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.." she gave birth to Him. That is all! I don't see the problem here.

Let's look past the words.. :angel:
 
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kisstheson

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What is wrong with the symbolism of Mary being a rod from the root of Jesse and Jesus being the fruitful blossom of that branch/rod? It sounds like a family tree to me... If Jesse is the root, and Jesus is the Fruit of the root, who is the rod/branch/twig that bears the fruit?

Here are three translations of Isaiah 11:1.

AND there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.

And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit:

And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.
It's wrong because Jesus Christ is the root of Jesse. Couple this with Isaiah 53:2 'he shall grow up like a root out of dry ground." Root of Jesse is one of the many titles of Christ. Mary is NOT the root of Jesse.
 
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kisstheson

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about the Tree of Life..

I really think that we're all focusing on words too much here. let's ask ourselves the question...how much do they really matter..

Honestly..we all agree that Jesus gives eternal life, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the vine, etc. Saying that Mary is the Tree of Life is just saying that Jesus came from her.."and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.." she gave birth to Him. That is all! I don't see the problem here.

Let's look past the words.. :angel:

Look past the words? the words have caused me to stumble and I most likely won't go back catholic church because I'm not going to blindly adhere to something that goes against everything that I believe about Mary. Words do have meaning. This is exaperating and grievous. How can anyone call mary the Tree of Life? Jesus alone has Life. he is the Life. he is the Resurrection and the Life. Mary was created by JESUS. (John 1:2)Mary gave birth to Jesus yes, but she didn't create Him. Mary is dependent upon Christ. "All things are held together by HIM." She can't even exist without Jesus.

How much do words really matter? a whole lot, especially when you are attributing things to Mary that are Christ's alone.

You need to put her down a couple of notches. I will never ever, ever, ever put her in the such a lofty position.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Look past the words?

I think that sometimes we give words more importance than they really have. It's the meanings that are truly important. It's kind of like how some people look at the Bible, when they want everything to be spelled out for them. I believe that God would want us to read the Bible not as a collection of rules and facts...but look at it as a whole. I'm not sure how to say what I'm thinking here.. what I mean is.. God gave us the Bible to communicate the message of salvation, and to tell us about His love for us. When we debate things like..what is the tree of life, etc..we are focusing on the words and terminology and I think God wants us to look past that, to look at the message. This was the mistake of the Pharisees, btw.. I'm not calling anyone here a Pharisee.. but I think we shouldn't focus soo much on the details and terms.

the words have caused me to stumble

well I'm sorry about that sis. In the past I've stumbled too because of words. But..then I saw that if words caused me to stumble..then I was giving them way too much importance.. in fact more than what they should have. It's better to try to understand how the Catholic church looks at Mary by looking at the theology as a whole, looking at every part of it, together, instead of deciding it's all wrong because of one little term. That's honestly how I feel.

and I most likely won't go back catholic church because I'm not going to blindly adhere to something that goes against everything that I believe about Mary.

Oki I'm not sure how to put this..and not sound mean.. because that is not my intent at all.. but when I read your posts here, I'm not sure if you have understood how the Church looks at Mary. I'm sorry. Well it took me many months, and I'm still not fully there, so I'm not blaming you. But I really think you should just pray about it sis. Just think..what IF..God wants you to be Catholic. I mean, I don't know!! Maybe He wants you Orthodox or something at this time. But let's say, hypothetically, that it is Catholicism that He's been leading you towards. And you reject the whole thing because of terminology. Just think about this. Isn't this the sort of thing the devil does, get us so focused on the non essentials that we eventually go astray. Please understand I'm saying this with love, even if it doesn't seem that way. :hug:no one here would want you to blindly adhere to anything. But..I think if you were to research how we look at Mary some more..and really pray and open your mind..and look at the terms from our perspective, not from the Protestant perspective.. you might see a different picture.

Words do have meaning. This is exaperating and grievous. How can anyone call mary the Tree of Life? Jesus alone has Life. he is the Life. he is the Resurrection and the Life. Mary was created by JESUS. (John 1:2)Mary gave birth to Jesus yes, but she didn't create Him. Mary is dependent upon Christ. "All things are held together by HIM." She can't even exist without Jesus.

has anyone here disagreed that Mary was created by God, and that she is dependent upon Him? Has anyone here called Mary the Resurrection and the Life?

How much do words really matter? a whole lot, especially when you are attributing things to Mary that are Christ's alone.

I disagree..I think words are very imperfect.

You need to put her down a couple of notches. I will never ever, ever, ever put her in the such a lofty position.

all that we are saying sis is that she's not just a vessel.. she is the Mother of Christ, who is God, so we call her the Mother of God. We call her the Queen of Heaven because she is His Mother - the Queen Mother, as in the Old Testament. NO ONE is saying, or has ever said, that she is equal to God or that she can redeem or save us by her power, or that she has any power of her OWN.. she is full of grace, which means that everything she has came from God, and was given to her as a gift.
Would you disagree with this?
If you agree...then you're agreeing with how the Catholic church looks at Mary!!

I really, really advise you to pray about all this.. :hug:take your time, and pray.

Ask God how He sees Mary...and try to be open to whatever He would say (I know this is hard)...and then wait for the answer. I believe He will show you when you are ready. I did this and I was very surprised. I had always said that "I don't need Mary", but God opened my eyes to what her role is.. and He totally changed me around. Just trust God, and He will show you what to believe in time.

Peace

monica
 
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isshinwhat

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I sing my daughter to sleep every night with the Ave Regina Coelorum. It's a beautiful prayer of the Church which she prays during the Liturgy of the Hours, especially Compline, the final hour before rest.

Ave, Regina caelorum, Ave, Domina Angelorum:
Salve, radix, salve, porta Ex qua mundo lux est orta:
Gaude, Virgo gloriosa, Super omnes speciosa,
Vale, o valde decora, Et pro nobis Christum exora.

V. Dignare me laudare te, Virgo sacrata.

R. Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.

Oremus: Concede, misericors Deus, fragilitati nostrae praesidium: ut, qui sanctae Dei Genitricis memoriam agimus; intercessionis eius auxilio, a nostris iniquitatibus resurgamus. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.

Hail, O Queen of Heaven enthroned.
Hail, by angels mistress owned.
Root of Jesse, Gate of Morn Whence the world's true light was born: Glorious Virgin, Joy to thee, Lovliest whom in heaven they see;
Fairest thou, where all are fair, Plead with Christ our souls to spare.

V. Vouchsafe that I may praise thee, O sacred Virgin.
R. Give me strength against thine enemies.

Let us pray: We beseech thee, O Lord, mercifully to assist our infirmity: that like as we do now commemorate Blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, Mother of God; so by the help of her intercession we may die to our former sins and rise again to newness of life. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Ave, Regina Caelorum

P.S. I hate Wikipedia, but isn't it convenient? :)
 
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ShannonMcCatholic

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Look past the words? the words have caused me to stumble and I most likely won't go back catholic church because I'm not going to blindly adhere to something that goes against everything that I believe about Mary. Words do have meaning. This is exaperating and grievous. How can anyone call mary the Tree of Life? Jesus alone has Life. he is the Life. he is the Resurrection and the Life. Mary was created by JESUS. (John 1:2)Mary gave birth to Jesus yes, but she didn't create Him. Mary is dependent upon Christ. "All things are held together by HIM." She can't even exist without Jesus.

How much do words really matter? a whole lot, especially when you are attributing things to Mary that are Christ's alone.

You need to put her down a couple of notches. I will never ever, ever, ever put her in the such a lofty position.
Why---why would you let anything on a thread on the internet keep you from returning to the Church? Is it just too hard to actually go talk to a priest? Or are you looking for a reason or excuse to not return? Is reading a book so that you can formulate your own opinion too strenuous??

Quit threatening with that--if you want to walk away from Truth because of the internet- then do it...Jesus didn't persue those who left when they rejected the teaching about the EUcharist in John 6--He let them walk away. But if it turns out the Church is the fullness of Truth, and the sacraments are the ordinary means through which God bestows grace upon us--I hope you'll be ready at prudential judgement to answer that you didn't follow the nagging of your heart because of a thread on the internet about Jesus' mommy being too important.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Kisstheson, God understands how you feel and that you don't want His glory to go to anyone else.. but you see the truth is that there is no competition between Jesus and Mary. When we honour her, we are honouring Him. There is no competition. We don't have to lessen Mary to a "vessel" (as many Protestants do) in fears of disrespecting Jesus. When we honour her as His Mother, we are glorifying the Incarnation, which is HIS work... and when we say that she is free from sin, we are glorifying His grace, which filled her and saved her at her conception. Everything that happened to Mary ..her sinlessness, her crowning as the Queen of heaven...was done by God..by His power, and for His glory.

God is glorified in His Saints.

there is no competition....as long as recognize that everything comes from God, and that it's all His work, and that we should love Him first above any creature.
 
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kisstheson

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Sorry..I can't walk this way...taking my eyes off of Jesus and giving Mary titles that are too lofty for her. I don't believe it. It grieves me incredibly and if you can't understand that...what can I say? Call me whatever you will. This has me VERY upset. I will not shut off my brain and prestend that words don't matter. I do not expect christ to go against scripture either so I am not going to ask Him if His mother is the root of jesse or the tree of life or the gate when I know that Christ Himself is all of these. I don't need competing forces in my life. Christ get all my attention, praise, love and adoration. :bow::prayer:
 
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thereselittleflower

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The irony here is that Revelations is the only book in the Bible not canonized by the RCC.

I have no idea where you are getting your information from, but Revelation is MOST DEFINITELY part of the Canonical Scriptures!

It would be very good to have a good grasp of the basics from which to argue from.
The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

The Fourth Council of Carthage in 419

CANON XXIV. (Greek xxvii.)
"That nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture.
ITEM, that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the Canonical Scriptures are as follows: * Genesis * Exodus * Leviticus * Numbers * Deuteronomy * Joshua the Son of Nun * The Judges * Ruth * The Kings (4 books) * The Chronicles (2 books) * Job * The Psalter * The Five books of Solomon (includes Wisdom and Sirach) * The Twelve Books of the Prophets * Isaiah * Jeremiah * Ezechiel * Daniel * Tobit * Judith * Esther * Ezra (2 books) * Maccabees (2books).
The New Testament: * The Gospels (4 books) * The Acts of the Apostles (1 book) * The Epistles of Paul (14) * The Epistles of Peter, the Apostle (2) * The Epistles of John the Apostle (3) * The Epistles of James the Apostle (1) * The Epistle of Jude the Apostle (1) * The Revelation of John (1 book).
Let this be sent to our brother and fellow bishop, [Pope] Boniface, and to the other bishops of those parts, that they may confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church."
[This is Canon xxxvj. of Hippo., 393. The last phrase allowing the reading of the "passions of the Martyrs" on their Anniversaries is omitted from the African code.]





The Council of Florence, also called Basel, 1431-1445,

SESSION 11 4 February 1442:
"We, therefore, to whom the Lord gave the task of feeding Christ's sheep', had abbot Andrew carefully examined by some outstanding men of this sacred council on the articles of the faith, the sacraments of the church and certain other matters pertaining to salvation. At length, after an exposition of the catholic faith to the abbot, as far as this seemed to be necessary, and his humble acceptance of it, we have delivered in the name of the Lord in this solemn session, with the approval of this sacred ecumenical council of Florence, the following true and necessary doctrine. Most firmly it believes, professes and preaches that the one true God, Father, Son and holy Spirit, is the creator of all things that are, visible and invisible, who, when he willed it, made from his own goodness all creatures, both spiritual and corporeal, good indeed because they are made by the supreme good, but mutable because they are made from nothing, and it asserts that there is no nature of evil because every nature, in so far as it is a nature, is good. It professes that one and the same God is the author of the old and the new Testament -- that is, the law and the prophets, and the gospel -- since the saints of both testaments spoke under the inspiration of the same Spirit.
It accepts and venerates their books, whose titles are as follows. Five books of Moses, namely Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, Esdras, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Job, Psalms of David, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, namely Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi; two books of the Maccabees; the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; fourteen letters of Paul, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, two to the Thessalonians, to the Colossians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two letters of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; Acts of the Apostles; Apocalypse of John."


By your comment you are stating that there is a coredeemer and diminsihing the effacy of Jesus. If I was an inquiring preconvert, I would pronbably also not want to be a Catholic if I felt you were representative of the what Catholics believe.

Since we see that there is poor understanding of even the basics such as what is and is not canonize scripture in the Catholic Church, it is becoming apparent that such criticisms don't hold a lot of weight or vaidity and only further demonstrate a very serious error in understanding what the Church teaches on the matter and what others are saying in defense of Church teaching.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Sorry..I can't walk this way...taking my eyes off of Jesus and giving Mary titles that are too lofty for her. I don't believe it. It grieves me incredibly and if you can't understand that...what can I say? Call me whatever you will. This has me VERY upset. I will not shut off my brain and prestend that words don't matter. I do not expect christ to go against scripture either so I am not going to ask Him if His mother is the root of jesse or the tree of life or the gate when I know that Christ Himself is all of these. I don't need competing forces in my life. Christ get all my attention, praise, love and adoration. :bow::prayer:

Then give Christ all your praise, love and adoration. There is no need to pray to Mary directly to be Catholic.


Let me ask you something though. . . . what happens when one's interpretation of scripture goes against the teaching of the apostles?
 
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thereselittleflower

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It is contrary by its absence and by the fact that Jesus stated in regards to his mother that it is better to hear the Word and keep it.

John 11: 25-26- Jesus said to her, "I am the the Resurection and the Life, the one believing in me will live even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die."

Jesus was saying they should imitate His mother and like her, to receive the word and keep it.

He was praising His mother to them all and holding her up to be imitated.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Well insinuating that Mary can be the tree of life suggests that she is the source of something, which is incorrect.

Well, Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity. It didn't come from out of nowhere. So she is the immediate source of something, though not the ultimate source.

Mary is the Mother of God. Being a mother means one is the source iof the child they bear. The child comes into the world through its mother.

Mary bore Jesus into this world; She is the Gate of Heaven, for God of heaven entered the material world through Mary as man, as one of us. She is the Tree of Life in this context, for Jesus is the fruit She bore into this world. She is the immediate source of Jesus' entrance into the world, though she is not His ultimate source, for He is God.

This is simply a symobilc representation of Mary's motherhood and role in bringing Christ into the world and her intimate union with Him in the Eucharist.

Yes, she is a source of much, she is the source of salvation to the world - but in an immediate sense only, not in any ultimate sense, for ultimately, God is the ultimate source of all.
 
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thereselittleflower

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This Mary being the tree of life business has me so upset I can't even read this stuff. JESUS is the root out of dry ground, the root of Jesse in Isaiah 53:1

You want to believe that about Mary...fine. I believe a lot of things about the Mother of God but I would never attribute to her the same titles that belong to Christ alone...tree of life, co -redemptrix, the gate...

Call it protestant thinking...whatever. This does not sit well with my spirit at all. I find no scriptural support for such nonsense. She's the root of Jesse too? :doh:Somewhere along the line the Catholic Church went astray with such teaching. "The top of the tree is composed of Mary?" :confused:

Ths is simply because you are not ready to hear this yet. :)

I wasn't the first time I heard it either. It took a lot of time and sincere desire for the truth before the old way of thinking was revealed to be faulty and taken out of the way.

It is like trying to look at our words through a lense that removes the most important color from one's vision which prevents one from seeing the whole picture, and what is left is distorted and even scary looking.

You need to be able to get rid of the selective lenses you have been given to view the world through in protestantism so that you can see the whole picture the way God intended it to be seen.

Right now, you are grossly misunderstnading us and the teachng of the Church which makes it very hard, almost impossible, for you to see what we are really saying.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Look past the words? the words have caused me to stumble and I most likely won't go back catholic church because I'm not going to blindly adhere to something that goes against everything that I believe about Mary. Words do have meaning. This is exaperating and grievous. How can anyone call mary the Tree of Life? Jesus alone has Life. he is the Life. he is the Resurrection and the Life. Mary was created by JESUS. (John 1:2)Mary gave birth to Jesus yes, but she didn't create Him. Mary is dependent upon Christ. "All things are held together by HIM." She can't even exist without Jesus.

How much do words really matter? a whole lot, especially when you are attributing things to Mary that are Christ's alone.

You need to put her down a couple of notches. I will never ever, ever, ever put her in the such a lofty position.


I am simply trying to help you see that you are being overly resrtictive and narrow in your understanding of biblical symbolism in ways never intended by God and the problems it causes.


For instance, you have said Jesus is the Tree of Life.

Where does it say that in the bible?


You have said the Cross is the Tree of Life.

where does it say that in the bible?


What you gave earlier from the bible does not have anything about either Jesus or the Cross being the Tree of Life.

Yet you are so sure that Jesus is the Tree of Life, and also that the Cross is the Tree of Life.

Where do you get this from?


And how can both Jesus and the Cross be the Tree of Life?
 
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Gwendolyn

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Let me ask you something though. . . . what happens when one's interpretation of scripture goes against the teaching of the apostles?

Clearly we understand things better now, than the apostles did then. We have 2000 years worth of thought progress behind us.

I'm being saucy. If our interpretation of Scripture goes against the teachings of the Apostles, who knew and lived with Jesus, then we must check ourselves and ask ourselves if our own comfort is more important to us than what Christ asks us to believe.

Doesn't mean it's easy. Most of the time it's hard, and sometimes downright miserable. Thank goodness we believe in a paradisical afterlife. ;)
 
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BAFRIEND

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about the Tree of Life..

I really think that we're all focusing on words too much here. let's ask ourselves the question...how much do they really matter..

Honestly..we all agree that Jesus gives eternal life, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the vine, etc. Saying that Mary is the Tree of Life is just saying that Jesus came from her.."and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.." she gave birth to Him. That is all! I don't see the problem here.

Let's look past the words.. :angel:

In TLF's context- she is stating that there is a coredemptrix which is against Church teaching. Looking past words ? I don't think we can past the following: there is one mediator and it is Jesus and their is one redeemer and it is Jesus. TLF is giving notions that titles and analogies reserved for God and Jesus alone are shared by Mary.
 
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BAFRIEND

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Then give Christ all your praise, love and adoration. There is no need to pray to Mary directly to be Catholic.


Let me ask you something though. . . . what happens when one's interpretation of scripture goes against the teaching of the apostles?

And Paul stated that there was one mediator and it was Jesus.
 
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