Mary as mediatrix?

[kisstheson]

[QUOTESaying that--as though it somehow oppose what the Church teaches-- shows the depth of your ignorance about what the Church truly teaches about Mary. Mary always, always point to her Son and says "Do whatever He tells You". Mary and Jesus aren't in competition.

Like I stated Kisstheson, go to inquiry at your local parish and see if those on the RCIA team agree with the fringes here.

You want to hang on the pride of interpreting Scripture in a private little bubble--]

That in fact is not what she is doing. What I believe is occuring here is that she is listening to her conscience which the Church teaches is the voice of God. It is not her private interpretation creating the confussion.[/quote]
Thank you! Keep speaking the truth. You are one of the few voices here that is actually speaking things that my heart agrees with. I was all set to accept a lot of dogma about Mary even her pperpetual virginity (as I thought before that Jesus had actual brothers and sisters) but lately I've seen this isn't true. but this other stuff about co-redemptrix etc is one of the resaons I left RC in the first place, way too much ephasis on Mary.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry..That Jesus is the tree of life is very basic dogma. Tree=Vine.

What dogma is this?

See, this is what you believe, but where is this dogma taught?


You are bringing many assumptions into this discussion, yet what are they based on?

Who said that "tree=vine" is dogma? Accordint to whom? Who teaches this? Where does the Catholic Church dogmatically teach this?

You're not going to get me to "see" anything. Your over the top statements about Mary is a total turn off to me. before I even consider the Catholic church I have to get away from this stuff.

As I said, you are not ready for this yet. Don't let such discussions upset you so. It takes time to come to understand the Catholic faith. If we simply gave up the first time we ran into something we felt this way about, none of us would have become Catholic.

The Catholic faith is everything. We cannot be Catholic and pick and choose what we want to believe. It requires humble submission to the God given authority of the Church. Many stumble at this requirement for their pride doesn't allow them to make such a humble sacrifice of self.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Like I wrote before...Jesus left us Himself,i.e. the Church...left us the sacraments found in the Church as the ordinary means of bestowing grace- left us Himself in the Eucharist. I'd be hesitant to ascribe to God any voices which lead away from the Church and the sacraments and the Eucharist.

 

[kisstheson]

I wish you would stop belittling Jesus. I'm not going to try and prove anything to you because the fact the Jesus is the Living Vine,that His cross is the Tree that brought life, that He is the root of Jesse, the gate through which the sheep enter, the Bright Morning Star, the only Redeemer, that grace and truth were realized through Jesus, that he needs no channel to pour out His grace but does so directly is all over the scriptures.

No I am not ready to go against my conscience.

 

[thereselittleflower]

As an aside Mary is referred to as mediatrix in the Compendium of the Catechism...in entry # 198 (as well as advocate, helper and benefactress). In Entry #100 she is referred to as the new Eve.

Of course then the Compendium goes on to say that Mary is honored with a sngular devotion- which differs essentially from that of the Trinity. Which for some reason people in this thread find difficult to believe that this is a glorious Catholic both/and...that Mary can be both mediatrix or new Eve and be subservient to Christ.

I am dumbfounded by some of the things I have seen said in this thread by Catholics too. I just find myself shaking my head as this is ll very simple and very gentle to the faith doctrines.

Everything Mary is is because of who Jesus is and a participation in Him in a unique way. That doesn't elevate Mary to the level of the God-head in any way.

But it does elevate Mary above all of mankind, and I wonder if this is the real issue, that Mary is greater than any of us, and some are unable to accept this.

Satan hates Mary, and so satan will stop at nothing to see that people do not accept her for who she really is, clouding the mind and judgement, making it seem that the innocent beliefs of Catholics and doctrines of the Catholic Church are something else altogether.

What a deprivation of wonderful help and relationship with Mary if satan can achieve this in the hearts of Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Mary in all her glory is nothing but a pale light compared to Christ, nothing but a reflection of divine light to us, as the moon is a pale reflection of the sun to earth.

Yet, as the moon is glorious in its role and purpose, so is Mary reflecting the Son's light and glory to us poor banished children of Eve in this valley of tears.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I seriously think this thread needs to stop.

Let things go, die down, and let kisstheson pray over these things.
Pray for answers.

I think the issue is confused and confusing and to be honest, if i were a protestant for so many years and i put my toes back in the water and felt some trepidation because i didnt really understand the difficult concepts - i too would be having a struggle.

Just as it took TLF 3 years to research the CC before she came home.
Or a number of converts...who testified to not 'getting it' when it came to Mary and her role...who eventually [and kinda cute too] would come in OBOB excited and thrilled that out of the blue they finally understood it.

KtS has to be certain of the basics before she can get into the bigger stuff.

And yea, i myself - kts - am still working on learning.
Born and raised Catholic as well. Skipped Mass for 7 years [going on occasion] - came back - and i assure you the discovery is never ending.

Wish you well on this journey - just stick with it. You will never regret it.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Who is belittling Jesus? Mary is the Mother of God. Jesus is God. There isn't anything dismissive about Jesus in that reality. God chose Mary to become Incarnate through. He didn't choose to come directly to earth, He chose Mary. That doesn't belittle God in any of His Three Persons--it is just a fact of salvation. Jesus doesn't become Incarnate and thive as fully human/fully Divine hypostasis without Mary--He chose dependency. He could have chose just myriad other ways to bring about the atonement for sins, but didn't--He chose to be dependent upon one woman. That ain't nothon'.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I wish you would stop belittling Jesus.

I am sorry you feel this is what is happening. I can assure you its not. Giving such special recognition to Mary can no more detract from Jesus than the moon can detract from the sun. I pray that someday you will be able to see and understand this. It is simplicity itself.

I'm not going to try and prove anything to you because the fact the Jesus is the Living Vine,that His cross is the Tree that brought life, that He is the root of Jesse, the gate through which the sheep enter, the Bright Morning Star, the only Redeemer, that grace and truth were realized through Jesus, that he needs no channel to pour out His grace but does so directly is all over the scriptures. No I am not ready to go against my conscience.

You cannot go against your consicence. Let no one convince you otherwise, for we all are accountable for what we know.

But we all are also held accountable for what we could have known, but choose not to pursue.


Just because your conscience does not allow you to believe what we are telling you know, that does not mean your conscience has been rightly formed.

What all of us who have converted from protetantism, especially any type of pentacostalism andor fundamentalism, is that our consciences, much to our surprise, had been very poorly formed when it came to matters of faith and morals. There was a lot to unlearn before we could see the Catholic Church for who and what She really is.

I pray that someday you are able to come to the same place.

 

[WarriorAngel]

One more thing, and dont take this badly...
Sometimes what we think is the conscience is many times years of 'teaching' outside the Church.

Bless you.

 

[JoabAnias]

I dug up the letter I received from Rome on this proposed 5th dogma.

I will quote the beginning of the letter for you:

From the Vatican:

The Secretariat of State acknowledges the letter addressed to the Holy Father requesting the proclamation of a dogma related to the doctrine of Mary's role in the work of Redemption.

After consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Secretariat of State is pleased to enclose a copy of the Declaraiont of the Theological Commission of the International Mariological Congress celebrated in Czestochowa; it was published in the English edition of L' Observatore Romano on 4 June 1997.

Signed by Monsignor Gabrielle Cassia
Assessor

The enclosed article I received from L' Observatore Romano (Weekly Edition N.23 4 June 1997 - p. 12) is entitled "Declaration of the Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy".

I haven't time to type the whole thing out but will reiterate an excerpt and leave looking up the full article to those who may be interested:

1. The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican Council did not used the title "Coredemptrix" and uses "Mediatrix" and "Advocate" in a very moderate way (cf Lumen gentium, n. 62).... (snip) : In the first decades of this century the Holy See entrusted the possibility of its definition to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy See decided to set the question aside.

2. Even if the titles were assigned a content which could be accepted as belonging to the deposit of the faith, the definition of these titles, however, in the present situation would be lacking in theological clarity, as such titles and the doctrines inherent in them still require further study in a renewed Trinitarian, ecclesiastical and anthropological perspective. Finally, the theologians, especially the non-Catholics, were sensitive to the ecumenical difficulties which would be involved in such a definition.

With this being spoken from Rome I think it necessary to ask everyone to be mindful of ecumenism in defining these terms of personal initiative, and especially toward anyone who may be uneasy with them.

Explanation is one thing. Causing scandal with over bearing opinions is quite another and something we should all be careful to avoid.

Peace and God bless and prayers for all.

Joab.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Jesus is the one and only Tree of Life. "I am the Vine." John 15
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." John 14:6
His cross is the Tree of Life.

Jesus Christ The Apple Tree

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we11bcbyaKk&feature=related

Nice pictures, I love the art work. Keep on seeking Jesus with all your heart. Remember he said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. Man will try to complicate salvation, but it is a simple relationship with God.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I am dumbfounded by some of the things I have seen said in this thread by Catholics too. I just find myself shaking my head as this is ll very simple and very gentle to the faith doctrines.

Everything Mary is is because of who Jesus is and a participation in Him in a unique way. That doesn't elevate Mary to the level of the God-head in any way.

But it does elevate Mary above all of mankind, and I wonder if this is the real issue, that Mary is greater than any of us, and some are unable to accept this.

Satan hates Mary, and so satan will stop at nothing to see that people do not accept her for who she really is, clouding the mind and judgement, making it seem that the innocent beliefs of Catholics and doctrines of the Catholic Church are something else altogether.

What a deprivation of wonderful help and relationship with Mary if satan can achieve this in the hearts of Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Mary in all her glory is nothing but a pale light compared to Christ, nothing but a reflection of divine light to us, as the moon is a pale reflection of the sun to earth.

Yet, as the moon is glorious in its role and purpose, so is Mary reflecting the Son's light and glory to us poor banished children of Eve in this valley of tears.

I am also dumbfounded by what almost borders on Idolatry and trying to elevate Mary to a Goddess . Mary called herself a servant, a bond slave but never Queen or Co-redemptrix or some other pseudo descriptor,

 

[CathNancy]

I dug up the letter I received from Rome on this proposed 5th dogma.

I will quote the beginning of the letter for you:



The enclosed article I received from L' Observatore Romano (Weekly Edition N.23 4 June 1997 - p. 12) is entitled "Declaration of the Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy".

I haven't time to type the whole thing out but will reiterate an excerpt and leave looking up the full article to those who may be interested:



With this being spoken from Rome I think it necessary to ask everyone to be mindful of ecumenism in defining these terms of personal initiative, and especially toward anyone who may be uneasy with them.

Explanation is one thing. Causing scandal with over bearing opinions is quite another and something we should all be careful to avoid.

Peace and God bless and prayers for all.

Joab.

Thank you Joab.

 

[kisstheson]

Nice pictures, I love the art work. Keep on seeking Jesus with all your heart. Remember he said, I will never leave you nor forsake you. Man will try to complicate salvation, but it is a simple relationship with God.

Oh yes! I love the art too! Thanks for noticing and thank you for understanding and appreciating my heart. hope you get the chance to watch the video. I hope everyone does. Its a truly beautiful song.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I am sorry you feel this is what is happening. I can assure you its not. Giving such special recognition to Mary can no more detract from Jesus than the moon can detract from the sun. I pray that someday you will be able to see and understand this. It is simplicity itself.

1 Timothy 2 Chapter 2:5:

For there is one God.
There is only one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all.

Lumen Gentium of Vatican II discussed a variety of titles... adding this caution: The attribution of these titles should be "so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator" (n. 62). _ Fr Stravinskas Catholic Answer Book Vol. 2.

To recap then, Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. The subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints posses on their own...

As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between man and God. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place.

Father Peter MJ Stravinskas, Phd. Catholic Answer Book Volume One.

She sees it simply enouph, the way the Church sees it. Giving too special a recognition to Mary can in fact detract from the effacy of Christ who is the sole and only redeemer- and when one does that, they scandalize the Church.

 

[JoabAnias]

Thank you Joab.

My pleasure CN.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Jesus was saying they should imitate His mother and like her, to receive the word and keep it.

He was praising His mother to them all and holding her up to be imitated.

27And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.
28But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.
Duay Rheims

27While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
28But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
NASB

Sorry TLF, you have chosen to personally use an interpretation of that scripture that is well known but hardly accepted even by the translators of Duay Rheims and NASB. Looking at the term rather and contrary the statement makes no sense the way you chose to explain it.

 

[BAFRIEND]

The Church states that you cannot use a title, including mediatrix in a way that takes away from the effacy of Christ as the only mediator and redeemer.
​

No one has done so BA. To insinuate that anyone here has is very disengenuous.

TLF this your post from #187:

The doctrine of Mary the New Eve means that as Eve participated in the fall of man, so Mary participates in the redemption of man - as it took two to fall, it took two to redeem; so this is the clear doctrinal basis of the title Mary Co-redemptrix.

And I will also go back to this previous post of mine.

 

[CathNancy]

Jesus is our only redeemer, it was He alone whose death and resurrection brought reconciliation between man and God. Mary did play a role in our redemption by her obedience to God's will and we honor Mary and seek to imitate that obedience. But to say that it took two to fall and two to redeem is a misrepresentation of Church doctrine. The Church does not nor ever has, equate Mary's participation in our redemption with the saving work of Jesus. The term co-remptrix is ambiguious and leads to misunderstanding by Catholic and non-Catholic alike. As the post by Joab states, the title has not been defined by the Church and therefore is not dogma and does not bind we the faithful. In fact as BA has stated the Church holds that we cannot use a title that takes way from the effacy of Christ as the only mediator and redeemer. The Church teaches that we are saved by the death and resurrection of Jesus and only Jesus and to Him goes the glory.

At the same time the Church does recognise Mary's role in God's saving plan and for that we honor and venerate Mary, but the role she played is not equal to that of Jesus. Mary is more than just the vessel by whom God became man, when I see her refered to this way it saddens me, and as such we do give her such titles as Mother of God, the New Eve and the New Ark of the Covenant. All of these are titles given to Mary to reflect the truth of who Jesus is, they define Jesus as God.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I am also dumbfounded by what almost borders on Idolatry and trying to elevate Mary to a Goddess . Mary called herself a servant, a bond slave but never Queen or Co-redemptrix or some other pseudo descriptor,

The fifth Glorious Mystery of the rosary is Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth. Are you saying that the rosary contains faulty theology?

And again-whether you want it to or not, Catholic theology teaches that we are ALL co-redeemers--and that Mary is the archytype of perfect Christian, and so a model for us all. Being the Mother of God she alone stands in unique and singular relationship to the Trinity. Certainly not above or more important than---but alway, always as perfect disciple pointing toward the Trinity and never toward herself.


Somehow there is an aspect in some of this discussion missing about why the heck dogma gets defined in the first place....the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Jesus as true God and True man---these were not always defined dogmas. Though part of the deposit of Faith, and beliefs held by the Church for centuries before being defined--it is only when confusion arises and people begin to deny that which the Church has taught over the ages that there are put forth ex cathedra statements about their absolute truth. The Church being so much the result of Aquinas--takes time to make sure that what She is defining is precise and that dogmaticaly defining something is not just a matter of defining what is, but also what is not. However that something is even on the table to be discussed to be defined as dogma, ought to show that the ideas at hand are part of the tradition of the Church, and not something alien to Her.

Personally, I could care less whether or not any Fifth Marian dogma is defined---it won't change how I worship and pray one iota. Everything is for the greatest glory of God, even praying to Mary.