VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Jeffrey Bowden

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What pretentious nonsense.
The glorious Return is fully described in Revelation 19:11-16
No human leaves the earth then, or at anytime later.

Isaiah 66:15-17 refers to the Sixth Seal, the Lords Day of fiery wrath. The worldwide disaster that will commence all the end times events.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will occur during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

What I do; is the refute the foolish and unscriptural idea that people will be raptured to heaven. Before any Judgment: simply not possible.
Please point out where there is any wording of Isaiah 66:15-17 in the 6th seal.

Who is killed in the 6th seal? You ignore 25% of the world's population killed in the 4th seal. You ignore simultaneous wars all over the world in the 2nd seal. It is in the 2nd seal that God's wrath OBVIOUSLY begins. Not a word from you about it!

You appear to have read some commentary about the 6th seal and fell in love with it. It has OBVIOUSLY misguided you.
 
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keras

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Please point out where there is any wording of Isaiah 66:15-17 in the 6th seal.
They are both Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lords wrath.
Who is killed in the 6th seal? You ignore 25% of the world's population killed in the 4th seal
Mostly those killed on the Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, will be in the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 2:18
The 4th Seal was opened when Jesus Ascended in the first century, at least a quarter of the people born over the last 2000 years have been killed in the ways mentioned in Rev 6:7-8
The first five Seals are concurrent.
You appear to have read some commentary about the 6th seal and fell in love with it.
Commentaries on end time things are useless, as Daniel 12:4 & 10 inform us.

There are over 100 Bible Prophesies about the forthcoming Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, which will enable the rest of the end time Prophesies to take place.
They do not include a rapture to heaven, the fairy tale you have fallen in love with.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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They are both Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lords wrath.

Mostly those killed on the Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, will be in the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 2:18
The 4th Seal was opened when Jesus Ascended in the first century, at least a quarter of the people born over the last 2000 years have been killed in the ways mentioned in Rev 6:7-8
The first five Seals are concurrent.

Commentaries on end time things are useless, as Daniel 12:4 & 10 inform us.

There are over 100 Bible Prophesies about the forthcoming Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, which will enable the rest of the end time Prophesies to take place.
They do not include a rapture to heaven, the fairy tale you have fallen in love with.
You will never understand the timeline until you see that all of Rev from Rev 4 (including Rev 3:10) are in the future. The seal judgments have not been opened.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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They are both Prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lords wrath.

Mostly those killed on the Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, will be in the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 2:18
The 4th Seal was opened when Jesus Ascended in the first century, at least a quarter of the people born over the last 2000 years have been killed in the ways mentioned in Rev 6:7-8
The first five Seals are concurrent.

Commentaries on end time things are useless, as Daniel 12:4 & 10 inform us.

There are over 100 Bible Prophesies about the forthcoming Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, which will enable the rest of the end time Prophesies to take place.
They do not include a rapture to heaven, the fairy tale you have fallen in love with.
You are adding words to the 4th and 6th seals. You can’t prove anything about what you’re saying.
 
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keras

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You will never understand the timeline until you see that all of Rev from Rev 4 (including Rev 3:10) are in the future. The seal judgments have not been opened.
You will never understand Gods plans for our future, until you renounce the rapture theory.
You are adding words to the 4th and 6th seals. You can’t prove anything about what you’re saying.
I provided scriptural proofs and there's plenty more historical evidence for the Fourth Seal being open now, then the 100 + Prophesies about the sudden and shocking Sixth Seal disaster., yet to come.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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You will never understand Gods plans for our future, until you renounce the rapture theory.

I provided scriptural proofs and there's plenty more historical evidence for the Fourth Seal being open now, then the 100 + Prophesies about the sudden and shocking Sixth Seal disaster., yet to come.
The Trib is seven years long. When it starts, it ends about seven years later. Do you understand that about Daniel’s 70th week?
 
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keras

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The Trib is seven years long. When it starts, it ends about seven years later
Revelation 13:7 says the 'beast' is given permission for 42 months, which is the second half of the final 7 years.
It is during that period when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place. Proved by the 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.

You display a severe lack of Bible knowledge and understanding. I suppose 'rapture believers' don't bother to really study the events of that 7 years, because they fondly assume they will not be here.
Going to be tough for them!
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 13:7 says the 'beast' is given permission for 42 months, which is the second half of the final 7 years.
It is during that period when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place. Proved by the 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.

You display a severe lack of Bible knowledge and understanding. I suppose 'rapture believers' don't bother to really study the events of that 7 years, because they fondly assume they will not be here.
Going to be tough for them.

Revelation 13:7 says the 'beast' is given permission for 42 months, which is the second half of the final 7 years.
It is during that period when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place. Proved by the 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.

You display a severe lack of Bible knowledge and understanding. I suppose 'rapture believers' don't bother to really study the events of that 7 years, because they fondly assume they will not be here.
Going to be tough for them!
1 Th 4:16-17 (rapture verses) have nothing to do with the 2A. Unbelievers see Jesus in the 2A; Acts 1:11 forbids Jesus being seen by unbelievers in 1 Th 4:16–17. The trumpets in verse 16 and Matt 24:31 also do not match, in purpose.

The rapture is proven by Acts 1:9-11 to be the next prophecy to occur. 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10 prove we are raptured pre-Trib.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 13:7 says the 'beast' is given permission for 42 months, which is the second half of the final 7 years.
It is during that period when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place. Proved by the 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.

You display a severe lack of Bible knowledge and understanding. I suppose 'rapture believers' don't bother to really study the events of that 7 years, because they fondly assume they will not be here.
Going to be tough for them!
It is more probable that the 7th trumpet is sounded shortly before the midpoint, and that the bowls are poured in the 2nd half.

You also omit the seal judgments that start in Rev 6:1-2. All hell breaks loose on day 1 of the Trib (1 Th 5:1-3). Seal 2 initiates the wrath of God (wars are a form of God’s “dreadful punishments” per Ezekiel 14:21).

The martyrs in the 1st half are found under the altar in Rev 6:9. The martyrs of the 2nd half are found in Heaven in Rev 20:4 (implied to be under the altar). Those two groups of martyrs combine to form the GM, who are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are then seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. They will serve Jesus in the MK (last sentence of Rev 20:4).
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Revelation 13:7 says the 'beast' is given permission for 42 months, which is the second half of the final 7 years.
It is during that period when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will take place. Proved by the 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.

You display a severe lack of Bible knowledge and understanding. I suppose 'rapture believers' don't bother to really study the events of that 7 years, because they fondly assume they will not be here.
Going to be tough for them.

You will never understand Gods plans for our future, until you renounce the rapture theory.

I provided scriptural proofs and there's plenty more historical evidence for the Fourth Seal being open now, then the 100 + Prophesies about the sudden and shocking Sixth Seal disaster., yet to come.
You claim natural deaths over centuries account for those KILLED in Rev 6:8. Those killings are not natural and they occur within months.

A viewpoint of seals 1-4 being open now is untenable. The 4th seal happens over months, not centuries. Daniel’s 70th week is only seven years long.
 
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keras

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The rapture is proven by Acts 1:9-11 to be the next prophecy to occur. 1 Th 1:10 and Rev 3:10 prove we are raptured pre-Trib.
Those verses do not prove a rapture at all. You falsely insert a rapture, where nothing like that is intended in scripture.
The martyrs in the 1st half are found under the altar in Rev 6:9. The martyrs of the 2nd half are found in Heaven in Rev 20:4 (implied to be under the altar). Those two groups of martyrs combine to form the GM, who are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are then seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. They will serve Jesus in the MK (last sentence of Rev 20:4).
The only correct part of this guesswork is; the GT martyrs will serve Jesus in the MK.
The Great Multitude are living people, it is them who come through the terrible Sixth Seal event, by their faith and trust in the Lords protection. Rev 7:14
You claim natural deaths over centuries account for those KILLED in Rev 6:8. Those killings are not natural and they occur within months.
Deaths by the sword, famine plagues and wild beasts are not natural. They have all happened over the last 2000 years. It could hardly have been worse! It is the way, it can be estimated; that about a quarter of the people born since AD 1, have deid.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Those verses do not prove a rapture at all. You falsely insert a rapture, where nothing like that is intended in scripture.

The only correct part of this guesswork is; the GT martyrs will serve Jesus in the MK.
The Great Multitude are living people, it is them who come through the terrible Sixth Seal event, by their faith and trust in the Lords protection. Rev 7:14

Deaths by the sword, famine plagues and wild beasts are not natural. They have all happened over the last 2000 years. It could hardly have been worse! It is the way, it can be estimated; that about a quarter of the people born since AD 1, have deid.
1 Th 1:10 is proven to be about the pre-Trib rapture, in the following:

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The applicable definition of “Delivers us" “snatched away” (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

We are forcefully “taken” in John 14:3, which is about the same rapture:

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

We are “gathered to Him:”

2 Th 2:1 (NIV): Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, …

We are “caught up:”

1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We next have to answer: What is God’s wrath? Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Therefore, God’s wrath can be wars, famine, wild animals (who brutally kill humans), and disease.

This is the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

God’s wrath in the Trib starts in the 2nd seal. 1 Th 1:10 proves the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. That’s the Bible saying it; not me
Those verses do not prove a rapture at all. You falsely insert a rapture, where nothing like that is intended in scripture.

The only correct part of this guesswork is; the GT martyrs will serve Jesus in the MK.
The Great Multitude are living people, it is them who come through the terrible Sixth Seal event, by their faith and trust in the Lords protection. Rev 7:14

Deaths by the sword, famine plagues and wild beasts are not natural. They have all happened over the last 2000 years. It could hardly have been worse! It is the way, it can be estimated; that about a quarter of the people born since AD 1, have deid.
1 Th 1:10, Ezekiel 14:21 and Rev 6:4 prove the pre-Trib rapture. You can’t disprove that. Your opinion is not proof.

As of Rev 9:4, the only folks living on the earth are the 144k (sealed servants of God) and unbelievers. This is even more proof of the pre-Trib rapture.

Rev 9:4,(NIV):,They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The 144k are God’s servants in creating the greatest revival in the Trib. The unbelievers who are converted become martyrs. Those martyrs are in Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4. They are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are then seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. They will serve Jesus in the MK (last sentence in Rev 20:4). It is they who are the GM.

Your citation of AD1 means you don’t accept the fact that Daniel’s 70th week is only seven years long. AD1 has no part in a future “week” of seven years. All of Rev 4 and beyond (the only exception is Rev 3:10) are in the future.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Those verses do not prove a rapture at all. You falsely insert a rapture, where nothing like that is intended in scripture.

The only correct part of this guesswork is; the GT martyrs will serve Jesus in the MK.
The Great Multitude are living people, it is them who come through the terrible Sixth Seal event, by their faith and trust in the Lords protection. Rev 7:14

Deaths by the sword, famine plagues and wild beasts are not natural. They have all happened over the last 2000 years. It could hardly have been worse! It is the way, it can be estimated; that about a quarter of the people born since AD 1, have deid.
You now say “fable” and “not true.” You never prove those verses wrong. Your opinions are not proof.

Those verses do prove the pre-Trib rapture, and you can’t prove they don’t.
 
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keras

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1 Th 1:10, Ezekiel 14:21 and Rev 6:4 prove the pre-Trib rapture. You can’t disprove that.
What disproof is needed?
Those verses do not say the Lord will rapture His people to heaven.

The sad fact is that you have believed false teachings and your attempts to support the rapture to heaven theory, fail miserably in two ways: a complete lack of any Bible Prophecy about it and the many Prophecies which tell us how we must remain on earth, undergoing testing and trials. There is no special treatment for Christians in the end times, they have been persecuted and killed for their faith for nearly 2000 years.

Are you holier than them?
No, we are told to endure it all until the end. That is: when Jesus Returns and gathers those who have proved their faith, to Him, in Jerusalem.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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What disproof is needed?
Those verses do not say the Lord will rapture His people to heaven.

The sad fact is that you have believed false teachings and your attempts to support the rapture to heaven theory, fail miserably in two ways: a complete lack of any Bible Prophecy about it and the many Prophecies which tell us how we must remain on earth, undergoing testing and trials. There is no special treatment for Christians in the end times, they have been persecuted and killed for their faith for nearly 2000 years.

Are you holier than them?
No, we are told to endure it all until the end. That is: when Jesus Returns and gathers those who have proved their faith, to Him, in Jerusalem.
In 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): Jesus “delivers us” FROM the wrath TO COME.

“Deliver / deliverance.” The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [ נָשַׁל ] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [ פָּלַט ] ("make an escape"), malat [ מָלַט , מָלַט ] ("to cause to escape"), halas [ חָלַץ , חָלַץ ] (to "draw out"), and yasa [ מֹושִׁיעַ , ישַׁע , יָשַׁע ] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger. Source: Deliver - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology -

“Delivers us” therefore means to “snatch away,” as in rapture. We are removed from Earth. To be removed from Earth means we are raptured to Heaven before the Trib.
 
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keras

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“Delivers us” therefore means to “snatch away,” as in rapture. We are removed from Earth. To be removed from Earth means we are raptured to Heaven before the Trib.
Purely your deluded opinion.
In plain English, to deliver someone, does not mean to 'snatch away' at all.
The Israelites were delivered from the Midianites by Gideons 300 troops, not by being removed from Israel.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Purely your deluded opinion.
In plain English, to deliver someone, does not mean to 'snatch away' at all.
The Israelites were delivered from the Midianites by Gideons 300 troops, not by being removed from Israel.

Purely your deluded opinion.
In plain English, to deliver someone, does not mean to 'snatch away' at all.
The Israelites were delivered from the Midianites by Gideons 300 troops, not by being removed from Israel.
“Deliver / deliverance.” The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [ נָשַׁל ] ("draw out, snatch away"), palat [ פָּלַט ] ("make an escape"), malat [ מָלַט , מָלַט ] ("to cause to escape"), halas [ חָלַץ , חָלַץ ] (to "draw out"), and yasa [ מֹושִׁיעַ , ישַׁע , יָשַׁע ] ("to save") fall within the field of meaning describing God's redemptive activity on the part of his people. This usage of deliverance focuses on God's removal of those who are in the midst of trouble or danger. Source: Deliver - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology -

Deliver has more than one definition. It has applications of “removing from danger,” as in 1 Th 1:10. Also, the Trib is not about testing believers. You can’t show me one verse — about the Trib — wherein it states believers must go through the Trib to have their faith tested.

What are the purposes to the 7-year Trib? There is no verse that even says believers enter the Trib.
 
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keras

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Deliver has more than one definition. It has applications of “removing from danger,” as in 1 Th 1:10. Also, the Trib is not about testing believers. You can’t show me one verse — about the Trib — wherein it states believers must go through the Trib to have their faith tested.
And that definition must fit with the context and not contradict any other scripture.
Your theory of a rapture in 1 Thess 1:10, does not fit the context and contradicts many other scriptures. You are wrong and your dream of a rapture to heaven will never happen.

One verse? Revelation 12:17, plainly says Christians will face the wrath of Satan.
But actually, the great test of our faith will be the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. 1 Peter 4:12
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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And that definition must fit with the context and not contradict any other scripture.
Your theory of a rapture in 1 Thess 1:10, does not fit the context and contradicts many other scriptures. You are wrong and your dream of a rapture to heaven will never happen.

One verse? Revelation 12:17, plainly says Christians will face the wrath of Satan.
But actually, the great test of our faith will be the soon to happen; Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. 1 Peter 4:12
Rev 12:17 is how the 2nd half’s GM are killed. All of the GM are converted believers. So, they are unbelievers before the Trib. They are converted during the Trib.

1 Peter 4 is not about the Trib. It’s about daily living and the trials and tribulations we face in daily life.

There is no verse that proves believers enter the Trib.

1 Th 1:10 says “delivers us.” Look at the data that states its meaning: “snatched up,” which means rapture.

John 14:3 says … I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

The “take you” in John 14:3 is synonymous with “snatched up” in the meaning of “delivers us” in 1 Th 1:10.

Your expected denial is not proof I’m wrong. PROVE I’m wrong. You haven’t yet done so.
 
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