A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

[FaithT]

That won’t change as far as evolution Faith. Evolution and creation are both allowed.

Good. I also hope that they don’t do away with the Saturday vigil and jeans.

What is the symbolism with the vail? Is it because of
1 Corinthians 11:7 “For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.”

but then
Genesis 1:27 says “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.”

I’m not really sure. When I was in grade school us girls had to wear head coverings during Mass, but while I wore a beautiful lacy veil on Sundays, we wore beanies as part of our uniform.

 

[FaithT]

A lot was cut. The length of the Homily.
However; it is still allowed since it is allowed here then it is in Heaven.

I understand preferences.

I was recently thinking about the Easter band we used to get... my mom disliked it.
I cannot say I recall pre Vatican 2 because despite being at Mass, I was way to little.
But as I grew older, it went from a 'sort of Traditional service' to very stream lined.
And then oddities came about, like Communion in the hand. The priest stance during the Our Father. etc
I make a conscientious choice to 'let it go...'
Just focus on Communing.

I go with the flow. I am just ecstatic to receive the Eucharist.

I could go with Communion rails, kneeling and Eucharist on the tongue again.

 

[Wolseley]

Yup. I don't think all of those 'middle folks' had our best interests at heart either. For example, I would be happy if liturgically they actually followed the Vatican II liturgy document, but we didn't get an implementation of that. We got something else. Worse.

Well, as I have observed before, in the United States we never got "Vatican II". What we got was a bunch of experimentation and Age of Aquarius modification called "the Spirit of Vatican II". The hippies running parishes at the time just started "updating" with whatever groovy thing struck their minds, man, like wow, can you dig it?, and they called it Vatican II.

A good deal of that damage got repaired during the pontificate of St. John Paul the Great; but the last of the old guitar and flowered-VW bus crowd isn't quite gone yet, and unfortunately, Francis is one of them. But he's not going to be around much longer; maybe things are looking up. I certainly hope so. The last thing I want is to go back to the types of parish we all had in 1970, with the......oh, wow---can you see the colors, man? I mean, like, really mellow! (cough, cough)

I could go with Communion rails, kneeling and Eucharist on the tongue.

The new young priest we had at the parish I attended about 16, 17 years ago encouraged communion on the tongue; he placed a kneeler at the head of the communion line for those that wanted to use it. He threw out all the OCP hymnals and paperback books and bought brand-new traditional hardback St. Joseph's hymnals. He used a gold ambo on the altar to hold the Order of Mass. He wore a cassock. He was 25 years old. The parish I attend now is similarly quite traditional, although not to that degree; the music is good, and the priest is my age, but he's very good friends with the young priest I just mentioned above---in fact, he's my current priest's regular confessor.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yup, Faith

Barring it is not that way, I let it go.
But I still receive on the tongue.
Being chill keeps me in a state of relaxed, regardless.

I used to put my head down when I saw things I knew could upset me, so now I don't even notice now.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What are some Catholic teachings that have changed?

Teachings have not changed.

Practices or aesthetics [like rails or stain glass etc] and such are not teachings.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What is the symbolism with the vail? Is it because of
1 Corinthians 11:7 “For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.”

but then
Genesis 1:27 says “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.”

Culture of the time.


Catholic Answers:

Question:​

Did the Vatican ever publish a document stating that women are not supposed to wear head veils to church anymore?

Answer:​

A: No. Women are free to wear a head covering to church if they so desire. It’s just not required.
The document Inter Insigniores by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (October 15, 1976) stated that the 1917 Code of Canon Law (canon 1262.2) requiring women to wear veils on their heads was a custom of the period and that such ordinances “concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance.” Thus the obligation “no longer has a normative value.” But, as a sign of respect, women still are required to wear a veil when meeting the pope.

 

[FaithT]

"When I asked an older priest friend once why cassocks seem to get such a strong reaction from his cohort, he said, “Because there is trauma related to that clothing.” Men who were formed under rigid, harsh or cruel seminary instructors — who wore cassocks — are naturally going to have a reaction when they see younger priests wearing them. The younger priests themselves presumably have no such associations and simply see them as traditional clerical garb. They assume that people who react against the outfit are simply “libs.” Perhaps if there were more openness and sharing among the generations, some of these tensions would be resolved."

I thought this made a good point. What we really need is more communication and sharing of life experience.
"Rigid, harsh or cruel" are words that could describe many aspects of the pre VII church. Anyone who attended a Catholic elementary school can probable relate a traumatic experience with a sister in a habit. And, of course, predatory priests were protected. So changes in the life of the church as lived were needed.

But it got kind of crazy. I remember the first guitar masses with base and sometimes drum. And even as I welcome the vernacular for public worship, I appreciate Latin for my own personal prayer.

So what is a Conservative Catholic?

1. Conservative Catholics preserve the priority of God’s revelation and its expression by the Church in her doctrine.
2. Conservative Catholics uphold the unbroken nature of tradition and seek to hand it on to the next generation.
3. Conservative Catholics exercise caution in the face of proposed changes in the Church and society.
4. Conservative Catholics value the beautiful diversity within the Church of various cultures, intellectual traditions and liturgical rites.
5. Conservative Catholics pay attention to how sin corrupts us within the Church and work for continual spiritual and moral renewal.
6. Conservative Catholics promote beautiful art, architecture and music in the Church and seek to restore the Church’s tradition of teaching the liberal arts.
7. Conservative Catholics uphold the primary rights and duties of parents and seek to form strong communities in the parish, confraternities and other Catholic organizations to live out the faith in daily life.

10 principles for genuine Catholic conservatism

www.catholicworldreport.com

I attended a Catholic grade school up until 1974. I never had any traumatic experiences with nuns, but we did have one or two crabby ones.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I attended a Catholic grade school up until 1974. I never had any traumatic experiences with nuns, but we did have one or two crabby ones.

We had ahhh, one who probably needed mental health evaluations.
She was really abusive and down right mean.

I know a woman who spent her adult life a mess from the abuse.
I had a run in [not my fault] I did not hear the teacher. [hearing issues as a child, they didnt have surgeries then with tubes] and she shook me hard for not hearing.

I really think she had issues she needed to sort out.

 

[FaithT]

We had ahhh, one who probably needed mental health evaluations.
She was really abusive and down right mean.

I know a woman who spent her adult life a mess from the abuse.
I had a run in [not my fault] I did not hear the teacher. [hearing issues as a child, they didnt have surgeries then with tubes] and she shook me hard for not hearing.

I really think she had issues she needed to sort out.

I’m sorry to read that. It does sound like she had mental health issues.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don’t know how I feel about this. I guess I’m in the minority again. We’ve got only one woman I’ve seen at the service I attend who wears a veil during Mass. I think they’re beautiful but I don’t plan on wearing one unless it becomes more common. I like the idea of the Church reverting back to older architecture and stuff but I hope it doesn’t revert to conservative teaching with regard to science. By that I mean I hope the Church still allows for the belief in evolution and other strides we’ve made in science.

The Catholic Church never was ‘creationist’ as some of the Protestants became in the 1800’s. So becoming more conservative as Catholics just doesn’t include becoming anything like literal seven day creationists. It just isn’t gonna happen.

What my hopes are is that we could end up believing what the catechism teaches, and liturgically having a synthesis of the TLM and novus ordo in English with considerable Latin and the old collects and prefaces from the TLM accurately translated.

 

[FaithT]

The Catholic Church never was ‘creationist’ as some of the Protestants became in the 1800’s. So becoming more conservative as Catholics just doesn’t include becoming anything like literal seven day creationists. It just isn’t gonna happen.

What my hopes are is that we could end up believing what the catechism teaches, and liturgically having a synthesis of the TLM and novus ordo in English with considerable Latin and the old collects and prefaces from the TLM accurately translated.

I have a friend who is Non Denom now but was a Catholic. We were talking recently about religion and I said something about leaving the Lutheran church because of their stance against evolution and their belief in a 6000 y/o universe. She said Catholics believe that way, too. I had to correct her but wondered if Church teaching about these topics changed in the last 28-30 years? I have to add that while she says I should go to whatever church I’m led, she surely seems resentful of Catholicism.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Catholic Church never was ‘creationist’ as some of the Protestants became in the 1800’s. So becoming more conservative as Catholics just doesn’t include becoming anything like literal seven day creationists. It just isn’t gonna happen.

What my hopes are is that we could end up believing what the catechism teaches, and liturgically having a synthesis of the TLM and novus ordo in English with considerable Latin and the old collects and prefaces from the TLM accurately translated.

The Church is def theistic evolutionists.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have a friend who is Non Denom now but was a Catholic. We were talking recently about religion and I said something about leaving the Lutheran church because of their stance against evolution and their belief in a 6000 y/o universe. She said Catholics believe that way, too. I had to correct her but wondered if Church teaching about these topics changed in the last 28-30 years? I have to add that while she says I should go to whatever church I’m led, she surely seems resentful of Catholicism.

In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that God created all things and that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I’m sorry to read that. It does sound like she had mental health issues.

The rest of the nuns [mostly] were fairly okay.
Just that one or two or three who were off putting.

I don't think it was because they were nuns, but because of their personalities.

 

[FaithT]

The rest of the nuns [mostly] were fairly okay.
Just that one or two or three who were off putting.

I don't think it was because they were nuns, but because of their personalities.

We had one very young nun, Sr. Maria. She was so pretty, religious and kind. i
I occasionally wonder whatever happened to her.

 

[RileyG]

I live in a diocese where most kneel and receive Communion on the tongue. We have plenty of young priests and nuns.

 

[RileyG]

But that is not teachings. It is worship style and there is plenty of room for diversity in the rites.
But I sympathize with those who feel they are being denied TLM.

I'm not sure. The teachings of the Church- as a whole- have not changed.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have a friend who is Non Denom now but was a Catholic. We were talking recently about religion and I said something about leaving the Lutheran church because of their stance against evolution and their belief in a 6000 y/o universe. She said Catholics believe that way, too. I had to correct her but wondered if Church teaching about these topics changed in the last 28-30 years? I have to add that while she says I should go to whatever church I’m led, she surely seems resentful of Catholicism.

Some people think a strict creationism is old fashioned religion so of course ‘conservative’ religion has to be creationists. But creationism as we see it today is maybe 200 years old at most. There can be Catholic creationists, that is allowed, but it was never ever a requirement of the faith as it is in some Protestant groups. Creationism is not conservative. It is a new teaching. Catholics are pre-creationist, and open to good science instead of putting those anti and unscientific blinders on to be creationist.

Some people resent the Catholic Church. In her case she probably never knew that we never were creationists like she thinks.

 

[Michie]

The Associated Press on the future of the Church

There have been numerous mainstream media articles on how traditional Catholics (and conservative Catholics favoring tradition) are the futu...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

The shift toward "the old ways" is really a step forward into the future.

There is an interesting piece - interesting because it was in the first place written and published - from the AP about the shift among younger Catholics to "conservative" and even - gasp - traditional ways. HERE ‘A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old w

wdtprs.com

The Times They Are A-Changin' - The Catholic Thing

Stephen P. White: The news media worry about American Catholics' return to tradition. But is this not just a mature reception of Vatican II?

www.thecatholicthing.org

Is the Church Shifting "Right"?

.....Maybe?

kmtierney.substack.com

 

[RileyG]

I have a friend who is Non Denom now but was a Catholic. We were talking recently about religion and I said something about leaving the Lutheran church because of their stance against evolution and their belief in a 6000 y/o universe. She said Catholics believe that way, too. I had to correct her but wondered if Church teaching about these topics changed in the last 28-30 years? I have to add that while she says I should go to whatever church I’m led, she surely seems resentful of Catholicism.

Actually it goes back around 60 years, even before Vatican ii.