A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

[Michie]

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — It was the music that changed first. Or maybe that’s just when many people at the pale brick Catholic church in the quiet Wisconsin neighborhood finally began to realize what was happening.

Continued below.

'A step back in time': America's Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

Across the United States, the Catholic church is undergoing an immense shift. Generations of Catholics are increasingly embracing religious conservatives who believe the church has been twisted by change.

apnews.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — It was the music that changed first. Or maybe that’s just when many people at the pale brick Catholic church in the quiet Wisconsin neighborhood finally began to realize what was happening.

Continued below.

'A step back in time': America's Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

Across the United States, the Catholic church is undergoing an immense shift. Generations of Catholics are increasingly embracing religious conservatives who believe the church has been twisted by change.

apnews.com

I know the author is all upset about the Catholic Church on the ground becoming less leftist, BUT THIS IS VERY HOPEFUL.

The United Methodists have seen a huge loss in membership, with the remainder being very liberal. Consequently they could approve LGBTQ ministers now for the first time. Almost everybody opposed to that has ceased to be members of the UMC. Same thing in a different direction in the Catholic Church. Those who are least attached to tradition have been disappearing from the pews. Those more attached remain. Consequently we are becoming more traditional as a smaller cohort because of the departure of those other guys. And again, almost prophetically, Ratzinger saw it coming.

Anyway, sadness for the many Catholics who have left and sadness that so many that feel alienated as they cling to the 1970's. A good article reacting to this is found here, down toward the end, as 'Relative Sadness': James games, relative sadness, and the walk of life

 

[RileyG]

Good. Prayers for the future of the Church.

 

[RileyG]

I know the author is all upset about the Catholic Church on the ground becoming less leftist, BUT THIS IS VERY HOPEFUL.

The United Methodists have seen a huge loss in membership, with the remainder being very liberal. Consequently they could approve LGBTQ ministers now for the first time. Almost everybody opposed to that has ceased to be members of the UMC. Same thing in a different direction in the Catholic Church. Those who are least attached to tradition have been disappearing from the pews. Those more attached remain. Consequently we are becoming more traditional as a smaller cohort because of the departure of those other guys. And again, almost prophetically, Ratzinger saw it coming.

Anyway, sadness for the many Catholics who have left and sadness that so many that feel alienated as they cling to the 1970's. A good article reacting to this is found here, down toward the end, as 'Relative Sadness': James games, relative sadness, and the walk of life

Not only United Methodist, but the rest of the mainline Protestant churches- ELCA Lutheran, Presbyterian USA, The Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, American Baptist, have lost a great deal of parishioners as well.

 

[Michie]

The AP offers an outsider's view of the Catholic Church

The Associated Press recently published a story about shifts in the U.S. Catholic Church by Tim Sullivan. Sara Perla responds, from a Catholic perspective:

www.oursundayvisitor.com

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not only United Methodist, but the rest of the mainline Protestant churches- ELCA Lutheran, Presbyterian USA, The Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, American Baptist, have lost a great deal of parishioners as well.

And they deserve the losses as they alienate their members who can't keep up with changes made to the faith once entrusted to the apostles. The Catholic Church deserved the same after Vatican II made so many changes.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The AP offers an outsider's view of the Catholic Church

The Associated Press recently published a story about shifts in the U.S. Catholic Church by Tim Sullivan. Sara Perla responds, from a Catholic perspective:

www.oursundayvisitor.com

"When I asked an older priest friend once why cassocks seem to get such a strong reaction from his cohort, he said, “Because there is trauma related to that clothing.” Men who were formed under rigid, harsh or cruel seminary instructors — who wore cassocks — are naturally going to have a reaction when they see younger priests wearing them. The younger priests themselves presumably have no such associations and simply see them as traditional clerical garb. They assume that people who react against the outfit are simply “libs.” Perhaps if there were more openness and sharing among the generations, some of these tensions would be resolved."

I thought this made a good point. What we really need is more communication and sharing of life experience.
"Rigid, harsh or cruel" are words that could describe many aspects of the pre VII church. Anyone who attended a Catholic elementary school can probable relate a traumatic experience with a sister in a habit. And, of course, predatory priests were protected. So changes in the life of the church as lived were needed.

But it got kind of crazy. I remember the first guitar masses with base and sometimes drum. And even as I welcome the vernacular for public worship, I appreciate Latin for my own personal prayer.

So what is a Conservative Catholic?

1. Conservative Catholics preserve the priority of God’s revelation and its expression by the Church in her doctrine.
2. Conservative Catholics uphold the unbroken nature of tradition and seek to hand it on to the next generation.
3. Conservative Catholics exercise caution in the face of proposed changes in the Church and society.
4. Conservative Catholics value the beautiful diversity within the Church of various cultures, intellectual traditions and liturgical rites.
5. Conservative Catholics pay attention to how sin corrupts us within the Church and work for continual spiritual and moral renewal.
6. Conservative Catholics promote beautiful art, architecture and music in the Church and seek to restore the Church’s tradition of teaching the liberal arts.
7. Conservative Catholics uphold the primary rights and duties of parents and seek to form strong communities in the parish, confraternities and other Catholic organizations to live out the faith in daily life.

10 principles for genuine Catholic conservatism

www.catholicworldreport.com

 

[RileyG]

And they deserve the losses as they alienate their members who can't keep up with changes made to the faith once entrusted to the apostles. The Catholic Church deserved the same after Vatican II made so many changes.

It really depends what you mean the RCC deserved people to leave. I don't think the original intent of St. John XXIII was for Vatican II to have so many changes, but he died before he saw it completed...but we are getting off topic, now.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It really depends what you mean the RCC deserved people to leave. I don't think the original intent of St. John XXIII was for Vatican II to have so many changes, but he died before he saw it completed...but we are getting off topic, now.

Perhaps off topic. I donno.

The part of 'deserving it' is that many changes were made by bureaucrats, such as the forced changes in the liturgy that were not actually specified by Vatican II. John XXIII had good intentions. Paul VI had good intentions. The bishops at Vatican II overall had good intentions. The documents of Vatican II were overall wise and solid. But what we got AFTER Vatican II was destructive and many people voted with their feet. How did that happen? It's all coming out in the memoirs now about how there were real subversives who got themselves into power.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Perhaps off topic. I donno.

The part of 'deserving it' is that many changes were made by bureaucrats, such as the forced changes in the liturgy that were not actually specified by Vatican II. John XXIII had good intentions. Paul VI had good intentions. The bishops at Vatican II overall had good intentions. The documents of Vatican II were overall wise and solid. But what we got AFTER Vatican II was destructive and many people voted with their feet. How did that happen? It's all coming out in the memoirs now about how there were real subversives who got themselves into power.

The middle folks who were to tell the people - stuff got lost in translation and well inches usually turn into yards.
All the time, and every time... perhaps.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The middle folks who were to tell the people - stuff got lost in translation and well inches usually turn into yards.
All the time, and every time... perhaps.

Yup. I don't think all of those 'middle folks' had our best interests at heart either. For example, I would be happy if liturgically they actually followed the Vatican II liturgy document, but we didn't get an implementation of that. We got something else. Worse.

 

[RileyG]

Perhaps off topic. I donno.

The part of 'deserving it' is that many changes were made by bureaucrats, such as the forced changes in the liturgy that were not actually specified by Vatican II. John XXIII had good intentions. Paul VI had good intentions. The bishops at Vatican II overall had good intentions. The documents of Vatican II were overall wise and solid. But what we got AFTER Vatican II was destructive and many people voted with their feet. How did that happen? It's all coming out in the memoirs now about how there were real subversives who got themselves into power.

Well said! I completely agree.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yup. I don't think all of those 'middle folks' had our best interests at heart either. For example, I would be happy if liturgically they actually followed the Vatican II liturgy document, but we didn't get an implementation of that. We got something else. Worse.

A lot was cut. The length of the Homily.
However; it is still allowed since it is allowed here then it is in Heaven.

I understand preferences.

I was recently thinking about the Easter band we used to get... my mom disliked it.
I cannot say I recall pre Vatican 2 because despite being at Mass, I was way to little.
But as I grew older, it went from a 'sort of Traditional service' to very stream lined.
And then oddities came about, like Communion in the hand. The priest stance during the Our Father. etc
I make a conscientious choice to 'let it go...'
Just focus on Communing.

I go with the flow. I am just ecstatic to receive the Eucharist.

 

[RileyG]

A lot was cut. The length of the Homily.
However; it is still allowed since it is allowed here then it is in Heaven.

I understand preferences.

I was recently thinking about the Easter band we used to get... my mom disliked it.
I cannot say I recall pre Vatican 2 because despite being at Mass, I was way to little.
But as I grew older, it went from a 'sort of Traditional service' to very stream lined.
And then oddities came about, like Communion in the hand. The priest stance during the Our Father. etc
I make a conscientious choice to 'let it go...'
Just focus on Communing.

I go with the flow. I am just ecstatic to receive the Eucharist.

Amen! The Eucharist is life!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What are some Catholic teachings that have changed?

 

[RileyG]

What are some Catholic teachings that have changed?

Mostly the liturgy I assume.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Mostly the liturgy I assume.

But that is not teachings. It is worship style and there is plenty of room for diversity in the rites.
But I sympathize with those who feel they are being denied TLM.

 

[FaithT]

I don’t know how I feel about this. I guess I’m in the minority again. We’ve got only one woman I’ve seen at the service I attend who wears a veil during Mass. I think they’re beautiful but I don’t plan on wearing one unless it becomes more common. I like the idea of the Church reverting back to older architecture and stuff but I hope it doesn’t revert to conservative teaching with regard to science. By that I mean I hope the Church still allows for the belief in evolution and other strides we’ve made in science.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

We’ve got only one woman I’ve seen at the service I attend who wears a veil during Mass.

What is the symbolism with the vail? Is it because of
1 Corinthians 11:7 “For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.”

but then
Genesis 1:27 says “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.”

 

[Michie]

I don’t know how I feel about this. I guess I’m in the minority again. We’ve got only one woman I’ve seen at the service I attend who wears a veil during Mass. I think they’re beautiful but I don’t plan on wearing one unless it becomes more common. I like the idea of the Church reverting back to older architecture and stuff but I hope it doesn’t revert to conservative teaching with regard to science. By that I mean I hope the Church still allows for the belief in evolution and other strides we’ve made in science.

That won’t change as far as evolution Faith. Evolution and creation are both allowed.