A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways

[FaithT]

Some people think a strict creationism is old fashioned religion so of course ‘conservative’ religion has to be creationists. But creationism as we see it today is maybe 200 years old at most. There can be Catholic creationists, that is allowed, but it was never ever a requirement of the faith as it is in some Protestant groups. Creationism is not conservative. It is a new teaching. Catholics are pre-creationist, and open to good science instead of putting those anti and unscientific blinders on to be creationist.

Some people resent the Catholic Church. In her case she probably never knew that we never were creationists like she thinks.

I didn’t know when It was okay for Catholics to believe in a billion year universe or evolution but I did tell her that we can now. She seemed skeptical.

 

[fide]

But that is not teachings. It is worship style and there is plenty of room for diversity in the rites.
But I sympathize with those who feel they are being denied TLM.

I would say there is no such thing as "worship style." There is true worship, and there is not. Jesus said,

Jn 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Jn 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Change in Liturgy does change belief, over time. The closer to Truth liturgy is, the more the faithful grow in true worship; the more distant from Truth liturgy is, the more the faithful lapse toward the world and the worldly, or even toward idolatry and superstition. The Church has learned, and it has become a proverb: "lex orandi, lex credendi" (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi according to Prosper of Aquitaine <SC 59cent>).<Ep. 8> [CCC 1124]. The meaning is: "The law of prayer is the law of faith" -- the Church believes as she prays.

The N.O., in it's new orientation and actions, words and music, admitting so much of the personality of the celebrant into the celebration, making the priest "center", shrinks the liturgy from its rightful supernatural orientation, naturalizing it and the members with it. Thus, the faith gradually turns away from the worship of God to thinking and talking about God, and holy dogma gradually is replaced by company rules. In the modern Mass, with modernist clergy, we are witnessing an eclipse of encounter with the supernatural, of true, humble reverent worship; man is being abandoned by the Church and left to himself.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I live in a diocese where most kneel and receive Communion on the tongue. We have plenty of young priests and nuns.

Nuns are rare if not completely obsolete where I live, currently.
In fact, come to think of it when I lived in the country for 2 decades, did not see any there, either.
[Except in Altoona - but none in the country]

 

[RileyG]

Nuns are rare if not completely obsolete where I live, currently.
In fact, come to think of it when I lived in the country for 2 decades, did not see any there, either.
[Except in Altoona - but none in the country]

Pray more more vocations. Especially religious sisters and nuns. Above all, pray that many young men will join the priesthood.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

In the modern Mass, with modernist clergy, we are witnessing an eclipse of encounter with the supernatural, of true, humble reverent worship; man is being abandoned by the Church and left to himself.

Jn 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Worshipping in Spirit and Truth is not dependent on the superficial issues you site.

 

[fide]

Jn 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Worshipping in Spirit and Truth is not dependent on the superficial issues you site.

Well, I thought I was clear enough - maybe not. Is the focus on the natural not a pointing away from the supernatural? Indeed, an attempted replacement?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Well, I thought I was clear enough - maybe not. Is the focus on the natural not a pointing away from the supernatural? Indeed, an attempted replacement?

Everything we can do externally, traditional or progressive is" natural".
Lets not mistake fancy materials for supernatural.
Supernatural is interior.

 

[fide]

Everything we can do externally, traditional or progressive is" natural".
Lets not mistake fancy materials for supernatural.
Supernatural is interior.

By God's grace we can do, for example, acts of holy Charity - acts worthy of the presence of God.

The theological virtues Faith, Hope and Charity, and the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit (infused in Baptism) are all supernatural. When we act according to any of those gifts, with actual grace, our acts are not natural, but supernatural. Thus the first supernatural act we offer to God is faith itself: believing into Him. From the Catechism:

“A new creature”
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”<2 Cor 5:17; 2 Pet 1:4; cf. Gal 4:5-7> member of Christ and co-heir with him,<Cf. l Cor 6:15; 12:27; Rom 8:17> and a temple of the Holy Spirit.<Cf. l Cor 6:19>
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.<Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4>
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.<Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9>
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:<Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39>
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.<2 Cor 5:17-18>

So maybe you misread my post. I believe it is correct as written; please reread it. When God created us in the image and likeness of God, He made possible the very supernatural union with Him, in Him and He in us, that is our vocation.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The N.O., in it's new orientation and actions, words and music, admitting so much of the personality of the celebrant into the celebration, making the priest "center", shrinks the liturgy from its rightful supernatural orientation, naturalizing it and the members with it. Thus, the faith gradually turns away from the worship of God to thinking and talking about God, and holy dogma gradually is replaced by company rules. In the modern Mass, with modernist clergy, we are witnessing an eclipse of encounter with the supernatural, of true, humble reverent worship; man is being abandoned by the Church and left to himself.

This is what I take issue with.

I disagree that the personality of the priest diminishes or shrinks the liturgy. The center is what is happening on the alter for all to plainly see. Language and orientation do not change that. The supernatural is immaterial yet can be occasioned by humble reverent worship especially when the faithful have a more full, active, conscious, participation. Faith is indeed supernatural but it starts within before it finds outward expression. Just like sacraments, sacred and visible outward signs that are instituted by Jesus to give us grace, something within.

 

[fide]

This is what I take issue with.

I disagree that the personality of the priest diminishes or shrinks the liturgy. The center is what is happening on the alter for all to plainly see. Language and orientation do not change that. The supernatural is immaterial yet can be occasioned by humble reverent worship especially when the faithful have a more full, active, conscious, participation. Faith is indeed supernatural but it starts within before it finds outward expression. Just like sacraments, sacred and visible outward signs that are instituted by Jesus to give us grace, something within.

I've started and erased my response to this twice now. I must leave, realizing this attempt of mine is destined to fail. One must know the difference between (for example) a priest lacking supernatural faith, who handles holy words no differently than the words of a joke he likes - and holy acts (such as his offering in the Eucharist) as an actor on stage might enact them - and a very different priest who exhibits an unction of holiness in all that he says and does, whether conversing at a coffee table or offering Sacrifice to God at a consecrated altar, in celebration of Holy Mass. The liturgy of the first priest elicits worldliness and spiritual compromise in the congregation; that of the second, a holy sense of the supernatural come upon them.

Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool; what is the house which you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?
Isa 66:2 All these things my hand has made, and so all these things are mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.

Isa 66:3 "He who slaughters an ox is like him who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like him who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a cereal offering, like him who offers swine's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like him who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;
Isa 66:4 I also will choose affliction for them, and bring their fears upon them; because, when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, you who tremble at his word: "Your brethren who hate you and cast you out for my name's sake have said, 'Let the LORD be glorified, that we may see your joy'; but it is they who shall be put to shame.
Isa 66:6 "Hark, an uproar from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I've started and erased my response to this twice now. I must leave, realizing this attempt of mine is destined to fail. One must know the difference between (for example) a priest lacking supernatural faith, who handles holy words no differently than the words of a joke he likes - and holy acts (such as his offering in the Eucharist) as an actor on stage might enact them - and a very different priest who exhibits an unction of holiness in all that he says and does, whether conversing at a coffee table or offering Sacrifice to God at a consecrated altar, in celebration of Holy Mass. The liturgy of the first priest elicits worldliness and spiritual compromise in the congregation; that of the second, a holy sense of the supernatural come upon them.

So in your view the effectiveness depends on the priest? Are you familiar with the concept: Ex opere operato?

Ex opere operato - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fide]

So in your view the effectiveness depends on the priest? Are you familiar with the concept: Ex opere operato?

Ex opere operato - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you familiar with the caution, "read the small print!" (emphasis below added by me, of course). Read the post you have disagreed with in the light of all these teachings.

CCC 1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation<Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1608> that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that “the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God.”<St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 68, 8> From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

and also:

Superstition
CCC 2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.<Cf. Mt 23:16-22>

and also:

CCC 1097 In the liturgy of the New Covenant every liturgical action, especially the celebration of the Eucharist and the sacraments, is an encounter between Christ and the Church. The liturgical assembly derives its unity from the “communion of the Holy Spirit” who gathers the children of God into the one Body of Christ. This assembly transcends racial, cultural, social - indeed, all human affinities.
CCC 1098 The assembly should prepare itself to encounter its Lord and to become “a people well disposed.” The preparation of hearts is the joint work of the Holy Spirit and the assembly, especially of its ministers. The grace of the Holy Spirit seeks to awaken faith, conversion of heart, and adherence to the Father’s will. These dispositions are the precondition both for the reception of other graces conferred in the celebration itself and the fruits of new life which the celebration is intended to produce afterward.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Are you familiar with the caution, "read the small print!" (emphasis below added by me, of course). Read the post you have disagreed with in the light of all these teachings.


and also:


and also:

"Disposition" is interior.

Your quoted teachings seem contrary to your own argument.

My point is that paraments, orientation, and even priest do not diminish the sacramental grace.

 

[fide]

"Disposition" is interior.

Your quoted teachings seem contrary to your own argument.

My point is that paraments, orientation, and even priest do not diminish the sacramental grace.

Yes "Disposition" is interior. It seems we have entirely different understandings of the importance - significance - relevance of the interior things to absolutely everything "exterior". I'm sorry to leave you here, but I need to attend to other matters. I sincerely hope you do not remain "here", but rather continue to explore interiorities where a whole other universe and beyond awaits.

As for your concluding last point: I guess "paraments" must have been a typo error, but I can't guess the intended word.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Yes "Disposition" is interior. It seems we have entirely different understandings of the importance - significance - relevance of the interior things to absolutely everything "exterior". I'm sorry to leave you here, but I need to attend to other matters. I sincerely hope you do not remain "here", but rather continue to explore interiorities where a whole other universe and beyond awaits.

With this appreciation of interiors that you express, how is it that you are so adamant about the superiority of TLM liturgical exteriors?

I find the N.O just as reverent, engaging and grace filled as TLM.

 

[fide]

With this appreciation of interiors that you express, how is it that you are so adamant about the superiority of TLM liturgical exteriors?

I find the N.O just as reverent, engaging and grace filled as TLM.

I'm sorry, but this thread is resolved as far as I'm concerned. Personal subjective preferences, in the matter of worship, in a minor factor. God's absolute will settles the matter.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I'm sorry, but this thread is resolved as far as I'm concerned. Personal subjective preferences, in the matter of worship, in a minor factor. God's absolute will settles the matter.

OK

 

[WarriorAngel]

With this appreciation of interiors that you express, how is it that you are so adamant about the superiority of TLM liturgical exteriors?

I find the N.O just as reverent, engaging and grace filled as TLM.

Just as the Eucharist was equally engaging in the catacombs, hidden dwellings and common homes.

TLM is beautiful, but the real beauty is the Presence of the Eucharist and His word.
Even in a jungle, with soldiers, Mass is incredible.

Just IMHO.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Just as the Eucharist was equally engaging in the catacombs, hidden dwellings and common homes.

TLM is beautiful, but the real beauty is the Presence of the Eucharist and His word.
Even in a jungle, with soldiers, Mass is incredible.

Just IMHO.

I have not been to a Mass that was not deeply impactful.
Maybe a poor homily, poor choice of songs or other external features, but to dwell on them is to miss the point.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have not been to a Mass that was not deeply impactful.
Maybe a poor homily, poor choice of songs or other external features, but to dwell on them is to miss the point.

Indeed I had been to incredibly [I won't get into it] bad homilies.
But the Eucharist still made me excited and weak at the knees to receive HIS Heart.

The Holy of Holies is not outdone by cultural or unfortunate homilies.