Ziz

The Gregorian · Aug 4, 2011

I've always been interested in the account of Job, specifically the illustration of the behemoth and the leviathan specifically mentioned in scripture. However, when browsing around online, I found both of these consistantly cross-referenced with a "Ziz." According to wikipedia:

The Ziz (Hebrew: זי&#1494 is a giant griffin-like bird in Jewish mythology, said to be large enough to be able to block out the sun with its wingspan. It is considered a giant animal/monster corresponding to archetypal creatures. Rabbis have said that the Ziz is comparable to the Persian Simurgh.[1] Behemoth, Leviathan and Ziz were traditionally a favorite decoration motif for rabbis living in Russia.

.... So, my question: Where did the story of the Ziz come from? Is there anywhere I can find out more about it? I assume it's metaphorical, however, some references talk about how there are those who believe that the meat of this bird will eventually literally be served to mankind.

My Jewish relatives say they've never heard of it, so I assume it's not a mainstream concept?

Lulav · Aug 4, 2011

Leviathan skin will be a chuppah on the day of the great banquet. It is also related to the Sukkah.

Here's some info for you.

The Leviathan, according to the Midrash, is a giant fish, created by G-d on the fifth day of Creation; it rules over all the creatures of the sea. Originally, two were created, a male and a female, as with all other species. However, G-d saw that if these two fish were allowed to mate and multiply, they would destroy the entire world by dint of their great strength and numbers, for the Leviathan is so enormous that all the water that flows from the Jordan river is not enough to quench its thirst. (Bava Basra 74b) G-d, therefore, killed the female and preserved it in brine, to be eaten by the righteous in the Time to Come.

Another huge beast whose flesh will be served to the righteous in the World to Come is the Behemoth, created on the sixth day of the Creation of the world. The Behemoth is a gigantic ox, and, like the Leviathan, possesses enormous strength. It, too, was created male and female, and, like the Leviathan, had to be prevented from multiplying, lest the world be destroyed. G-d therefore neutered the male and eliminated the female's desire to propagate. (Bava Basra 74b)

When the Messiah comes, , G-d will signal to the Leviathan and the Behemoth to fight one another. The result will be that the Leviathan will slaughter the Behemoth with a cut from his very sharp fins. Simultaneously, the Behemoth will kill the Leviathan with a blow from its horns. (Leviticus Rabbah 13:3)

From the beautiful skin of the Leviathan, G-d will construct canopies to shelter the righteous from the sun. (Bava Basra 75a) These canopies are referred to in our prayer as the Succah of the skin of Leviathan. Under these canopies, they will eat the meat of the Leviathan and the Behemoth, amid great joy and merriment (ibid. 74b)

Lulav · Aug 4, 2011

Here is some more info for you from
Teḥiyyat ha-metim

Leviathan is ruler over the fishes, whereas the Ziz is ruler over the birds and Behemoth over the beasts of the earth.

Here is another book with drawings from the Jewish Encyclopedia

As if the meal of the "wild ox" behemoth and the fish leviathan were not deemed sufficient for the great banquet of the Among righteous in the future, a fowl was the added, ie, the "ziz " (AV "the wild Gnostics, beasts " of the field),

The Legends of the Jews, Volumes I & II

By Rabbi Louis Ginzberg

Fish are fashioned out of water, and birds out of marshy ground saturated with water.12* As leviathan is the king of fishes, so the ziz is appointed to rule over the birds.1* His name comes from the variety of tastes his flesh has..

Leviathan, ziz, and behemot are not the only monsters; there are many others, and marvellous ones, like the reem, a giant animal, of which only one couple, male and female, is in existence. Had there been more, the world could hardly ...

Behemoth will be slaughtered, Leviathan (a fish does not require to be killed ritually) will be torn by Ziz, and the latter slaughtered by Moses. In view of the description of the contest between Behemoth and ...

anisavta · Aug 4, 2011

Jacqueline Jules has written several children's book about the Ziz.

Amazon.com: The Ziz and the Hanukkah Miracle (9781580131643): Jacqueline Jules, Katherine Janus Kahn: Books

The Gregorian · Aug 5, 2011

So is it considered to be an actual creature existing in the world somewhere? Is it considered to be metaphorical? Considering it's believed to be something that will be eaten, I assume it's considered literal. The leviathan and behemoth obviously originate in scripture, however, do we know where the idea of the Ziz originally came from? I see the idea written in commentary, but do we know where these people got the idea? Anything more than "Well there's something for the water and land... we should assume there's something for the air too... let's call it a Ziz?"

I understand the idea of additional commentary on the torah, just want to understand the concept as completely as possible.

yonah_mishael · Aug 6, 2011

The ziz is as real as the behemoth and leviathan.
(Hint.... none of them is real.)

GuardianShua · Aug 6, 2011

The Gregorian said:
So is it considered to be an actual creature existing in the world somewhere? Is it considered to be metaphorical? Considering it's believed to be something that will be eaten, I assume it's considered literal. The leviathan and behemoth obviously originate in scripture, however, do we know where the idea of the Ziz originally came from? I see the idea written in commentary, but do we know where these people got the idea? Anything more than "Well there's something for the water and land... we should assume there's something for the air too... let's call it a Ziz?"

I understand the idea of additional commentary on the torah, just want to understand the concept as completely as possible.

Long time no see. Hello! The creatures being refered to are literal prehistoric creatures, but they are parabolic of two different governments. The parables are secret society related.

yonah_mishael · Aug 6, 2011

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
The parables are secret society related.

More misapplication of the word "parable," as well as more conspiracy theory terror shows.... Some things never change.

GuardianShua · Aug 6, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
More misapplication of the word "parable," as well as more conspiracy theory terror shows.... Some things never change.

If you think you know the answer, then tell us. If you think there is no such thing as secret societies, then prove it.

yonah_mishael · Aug 6, 2011

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
If you think you know the answer, then tell us. If you think there is no such thing as secret societies, then prove it.

If you think there's no such thing as the Easter Bunny, prove it!

You can't prove a negative. However, if someone says that there are secret societies controlling the world, that generally reflects only on his own psychological problems more than on anything in the real world. Most conspiracy nuts are just that - nuts.

Are there conspiracies? Yes, of course. Always have been. Are they as high-wired and involved as certain people would have us believe? Surely not.

Lulav · Aug 6, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
The ziz is as real as the behemoth and leviathan.
(Hint.... none of them is real.)

G-d must have been having one of his days of lapse of memory and just pulling Job's leg.

15 "Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. 16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! 17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. 18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. 19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword. 20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby. 21 Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. 22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him. 23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth. 24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?

1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? 2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? 4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? 5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? 6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? 8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! 9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. 10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me? 11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.

Must not be such a thing to come up against G-d if you can stand up against a figment of his imagination!

I guess Asaph was wrong in all these things he was praising the L-RD for

12 But you, O God, are my king from of old; you bring salvation upon the earth. 13 It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters. 14 It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert. 15 It was you who opened up springs and streams; you dried up the ever flowing rivers. 16 The day is yours, and yours also the night; you established the sun and moon. 17 It was you who set all the boundaries of the earth;
you made both summer and winter.

Again, not knowing what he was praising about:

24 How many are your works, O L-RD! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. 25 There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number-- living things both large and small. 26 There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.

yonah_mishael · Aug 6, 2011

These are mythical creatures. The book of Job isn't to be taken literally on this.

anisavta · Aug 7, 2011

In Hebrew - what words are used for behemoth and leviathan Yonah?

GA777 · Aug 8, 2011

It is said that the leviathan lives in the deep, so how can you guys be so sure?Nobody went there so nobody knows

yonah_mishael · Aug 8, 2011

anisavta said:
In Hebrew - what words are used for behemoth and leviathan Yonah?

Behemoth and leviathan are Hebrew words.

GuardianShua · Aug 8, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
If you think there's no such thing as the Easter Bunny, prove it!

You can't prove a negative. However, if someone says that there are secret societies controlling the world, that generally reflects only on his own psychological problems more than on anything in the real world. Most conspiracy nuts are just that - nuts.

Are there conspiracies? Yes, of course. Always have been. Are they as high-wired and involved as certain people would have us believe? Surely not.

I study these things and you do not. I have records of to affirm world leaderships involvement. I am not inclined to underestimate the nature of things.

anisavta · Aug 8, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
Behemoth and leviathan are Hebrew words.

Yeah I know. Mayim is Hebrew - means water - wet drippy stuff. When I hear the word, a picture comes to my mind. So when a sabra in Israel reads the word behemoth or leviathan do they conjure up bedtime stories of a ziz or a dragon or perhaps a sea serpent that eats ships? Or have they found skeletal remains of one? Know what I'm sayin'?

yonah_mishael · Aug 8, 2011

anisavta said:
Yeah I know. Mayim is Hebrew - means water - wet drippy stuff. When I hear the word, a picture comes to my mind. So when a sabra in Israel reads the word behemoth or leviathan do they conjure up bedtime stories of a ziz or a dragon or perhaps a sea serpent that eats ships? Or have they found skeletal remains of one? Know what I'm sayin'?

No, לוויתן livyatan in modern Hebrew is a whale. It's the normal word for whale, in fact. The creature in Job's reference, which is surely mythological, has scales, so it wasn't what we call a livyatan today.

Similarly, in modern Hebrew the word בהמות behemot conjures up the idea of a hippopotamus.

That's what an Israeli sabra thinks of when they hear behemot and livyatan.... hippopotamus and whale, respectively.

These words have lost their mythological quality in normative Hebrew.

yonah_mishael · Aug 8, 2011

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
I study these things and you do not. I have records of to affirm world leaderships involvement. I am not inclined to underestimate the nature of things.

Most conspiracy theorists study their specific group's activities, often to obsession. It's always an unhealthy practice.

anisavta · Aug 8, 2011

Thanks. So - an ancient sees a whale or hippo for the first time - pretty impressive animals. He describes them and his kinsmen shake their heads and tell him to go lie down. From that cousin Tubal comes up with a story to scare the kids and embellishes it quite nicely. Then brother Jubal adds his twist... next generation comes along and now it's just mythology. Fast forward and now modern man has seen a whale and hippo, laughs and the animals return to their original language form. Just a thought.

Ziz

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Y'shua is His Name

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Never Forget!

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Never Forget!

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