Your epistemology

Clare73 said:

You'll have to improve your "form" (the soundness of your platform) for me to choose to give you that answer.

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James_Lai said:

Hello.

I heard many times on this forum and elsewhere, that it doesn’t matter what you like to believe or want God to be like, it’s objective truth that matters. Discover truth and if you’re satisfied it’s true, accept it. Be brave and honest enough to face truth. Great piece of advice.

But then what’s your criteria for something to be true? At which point do you say “this is true” and “that is an error” or maybe even “that’s a lie”?

There’re things we can decide more or less easily about, such as, “today’s Wednesday” or “it’s a glass”, but others not so easy - “God exists” or “Jesus is a myth”, for example.

I know there can’t be one size fits all universal approach to all and any information.

What are your approaches in regards to faith?

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In my approach to faith, the first thing I recognize is that I have a flood of sensory data coming at me from all directions ... and as the neuronal structure of my mind attempts to engage with that sensory data, all I can immediately conclude is that, through language, my mind creates the idea that "I exist ... and I am able to question everything and everyone."

It is at that point I first ask, "What is 'Christian faith' and who gets to define it?"

When I ask this, I get a flood of diverse definitions from a huge plethora of people, some Christian, some not Christian, but all of whom leave me with ideas about 'faith' that are anything but expressing a Cartesian conceptual framework.

So, I'm stuck. And the presence of Lessing's Ditch doesn't help matters much, either.

Clare73 said:

No one owes you an explanation or proof of anything they believe.

That's a personal choice, which they make because they want to do so, and they are not accountable to you for doing so.

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I agree. That is why I am asking you.

You've located accountability in the wrong place. . .which again explains your unbelief.

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I have evaluated all God claims that I have been introduced to and have found none of them convincing. That is what I am responsible for. I am asking you why you believe and you refuse to give me an answer which is your prerogative. What more can I do but evaluate claims by believers?

The only reason I do not believe is that I have not been convinced by good evidence. You refuse to provide any so I guess we are done?

Clare73 said:

That remains to be seen.

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What does this mean?

James_Lai said:

When you say I exist, what is this I? Product of the mind or smth more?

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When I say "I exist" from the context of neuronal constructs, I'm simply expressing myself in materialist terms. There are no dualisitic allusions being made here. (At least, not by me ...)

2PhiloVoid said:

In my approach to faith, the first thing I recognize is that I have a flood of sensory data coming at me from all directions ... and as the neuronal structure of my mind attempts to engage with that sensory data, all I can immediately conclude is that, through language, my mind creates the idea that "I exist ... and I am able to question everything and everyone."

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It is at that point I first ask, "What is 'Christian faith' and who gets to define it?"

When I ask this, I get a flood of diverse definitions from a huge plethora of people, some Christian, some not Christian, but all of whom leave me with ideas about 'faith' that are anything but expressing a Cartesian conceptual framework.

So, I'm stuck. And the presence of Lessing's Ditch doesn't help matters much, either.

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Gonna' have to operate in a different realm to sort it out.

Start with deciding who you think has this faith.
Talk to them about what it actually is.

Clizby WampusCat said:

I agree. That is why I am asking you.
I have evaluated all God claims that I have been introduced to and have found none of them convincing. That is what I am responsible for. I am asking you why you believe and you refuse to give me an answer which is your prerogative. What more can I do but evaluate claims by believers?
The only reason I do not believe is that I have not been convinced by good evidence. You refuse to provide any so I guess we are done?

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Yep. . .looks that way. . .ye old gift horse has moved to another pasture.

Clare73 said:

Gonna' have to operate in a different realm to sort it out.

Start with deciding who you think has this faith.
Talk to them about what it actually is.

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"How can I decide who 'has this faith' if I don't yet know exactly what faith is?," 2PhiloVoid asked the church choir ...

2PhiloVoid said:

How can I decide who "has this faith" if I don't yet know exactly what faith is?

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That one is by the seat of your pants.

Test and try, test and try, test and try. . .until you personally think it is true.

Not saying the search is over, but it will eliminate some of what might have been seen as possibilities.
And maybe some actual reality will be acquired along the way.

Clare73 said:

That one is by the seat of your pants.

Test and try, test and try, test and try. . .until you personally think it is true.

Not saying the search is over, but it will eliminate some of what might have been seen as possibilities.
And maybe some actual reality will be acquired along the way.

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Sister Clare, it's probably best to assume that if I show up to offer my own perspective to an OP inquirer in the Exploring Christianity section, I'm likely not here in 'search' of faith ...

...but thanks for your concern anyway. I know you care.

James_Lai said:

What if a God doesn’t want to be discovered? If He’s Almighty, above nature etc, He can easily evade our inquisiveness by playing a perfect game of hide-and-seek?

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I agree. I have never said God does not exist. I just don't have good evidence to believe he does.

Clare73 said:

Yep. . .looks that way. . .old gift horse has moved to another pasture.

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What gift horse? You refused to give me the reasons why you believe. When I was losing my faith I asked god many times through tears that he show me he exists. It was painful. He never did give me the evidence. I guess you and God have that in common. The thing is, you cannot accept that, so you must think that I am to blame for some reason all the while refusing to give me the evidence that convinced you.

2PhiloVoid said:

Sister Clare, it's probably best to assume that if I show up to offer my own perspective to an OP inquirer in the Exploring Christianity section, I'm likely not here in 'search' of faith ...

...but thanks for your concern anyway. I know you care.

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Did I misunderstand that you were presenting your "approach to faith"?

Clare73 said:

Did I misunderstand that you were presenting your "approach to faith"?

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No, I don't think you misunderstood me on that part. And you already know that I'm an Existentialist and Philosophical Hermeneuticist and (amateur) Philosopher.

All of that is nothing new here, is it ... ?

2PhiloVoid said:

Yes. And you already know that I'm an Existentialist and Philosophical Hermeneuticist and (amateur) Philosopher.

All of that is nothing new here, is it ... ?

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Assuming that I have a firm grasp and working knowledge of what that is.

Clare73 said:

Assuming that I have a firm grasp and working knowledge of what that is.

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You don't. But that's ok. I don't think you're less of a Christian for it.

I could be wrong, but I'm kind of guessing that the SOP parameters for this section are in full affect.

Statement of Purpose - Exploring Christianity Statement of Purpose

Hey, Clizby, John here. I hope I can explain some things about the comments I made.

I said: The atheists aren't looking for the truth about God, consequently, they don't find it.

First, I want to explain that my opinion of atheists expressed in the above statement is the result of an online encounter I had with some atheists on another Christian website, and that was my first experience with debating atheists. One of them asked a question about Christians and I responded not knowing that I was setting myself up for an endless debate. After many exchanges between that atheist and myself I finally realized that she wasn't interested in finding an answer to her question, but she was baiting Christians to draw them into an endless debate which would provide her the opportunity to show her contempt for the Christian & for their God. Other atheists joined the exchange between me & her, and the conversations turned into a vicious attack on me and on my beliefs. You said: This is untrue for me at least and almost every atheist I know. I want to know if God exists and the characteristics of that God. Sounds like you believe I need the Holy Spirit to give me the evidence I need. So all I can do is wait for that evidence.
I wish I could explain God to you, wish I could explain faith, wish I could explain how the Holy Spirit works in unbelievers, wish I could provide the evidence to you that would convince you to “believe,” but, unfortunately, I cannot do that. Only God can do that, and you consider that to be circular reasoning.

I hope you understand the before a Christian becomes a “believer” he/she was an unbeliever just like you are an unbeliever. Before becoming a Christian, I was a real hard case doubter & skeptic about the truth of the bible and about the existence of God, but something changed my mind about myself & about the truth of the bible. By the way, that is what “repentance” really means; it is a “change of mind” about ones need regarding sin & forgiveness & about God's way of redeeming mankind back to himself. I think “fear” was what drove me to seek the truth, and I believe God put that fear in me; fear that I could be wrong about my unbelief, and a fear that if I was wrong then I could be facing a tragic future.

I am not a bible scholar; not a minister, not a preacher; nothing but an old forgiven lost wicked sinner who found the truth about the matter of God's way of forgiving & changing the lives of all who would seek after Him.

The only evidence of the Holy Spirit I can give you is that of His working in the life of an unbeliever like myself, to convince them of the truth of the bible, of the existence of God, and to bring the unbeliever out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the Gospel. I agree with you that the process I just described sounds like “circular reasoning,” but the difference in the way you see circular reasoning and the process I am describing is that when the Holy Spirit is at the center of that circle then the unbeliever is given the ability to understand the truth of the Gospel message, and that is the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in that unbeliever's life. I am describing how that process worked in my life at a time when I was completely & totally blind to the truth of the bible, and thought I could never know the truth of the matter until I was dead, and that thought scared the you know what out of me, but at the same time I was desperate to know the truth & was willing to accept that truth if whatever it was convinced me that it was true. (Sorry, but I realize that my explanation probably doesn't make sense to you, but I don't know any other way to explain it right now.)

John 16:13-14, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” 14: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

That scripture is saying that the Holy Spirit will work in an unbeliever's heart/mind, or whatever you want to call the inside of a person, to give them the ability to see & to understand the truth about God.

Characteristics of God: I will list some of those below, but there are more that can be found in scripture.

God is Holy, Good, Just, Righteous, Faithful, Infinite.

God is Patient, 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

You said “ So all I can do is wait for that evidence. “ No, you must seek God as though knowing Him is more important to you than anything else in life. God is waiting for you to do your part. When He sees that you are seeking Him in earnest, and you are looking to Him for answers, and that you will not give up on Him until you find Him, then the Holy Spirit can begin His work in you.

I hope I haven't said anything to offend you. My purpose is to maybe in some way help you to see the importance of looking to God for your answers instead of debating Christians. You can know God. Even though you aren't certain that God exists, you can still seek after Him. He knows your heart, your intent, your motive. To look to God for answers means to search his word, the bible, expecting to find your answer, and not giving up until you have found whatever it is you need so that you can see & understand the simple truth of the Gospel message. And, God won't be offended if you ask Him for help as you search for your answers. While being uncertain that God was there to hear me, I did that myself right before I opened that bible to the Book of John and started reading chapter 1. By the time I had read through chapter 6 the Holy Spirit had given me the answers I was so desperately seeking.

Regards,

John