"You can't live however you want and still be saved"

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

This is what you get accused of constantly if you share the good news and say OSAS trying to win souls to the Lord Jesus Christ, My response to the license to sin false accusers or the James 2 works salvation crowd is that technically someone can still live a completely wicked lifestyle and still be saved, but there will be consequences on this earth, God is not mocked and he chastises those he loves. Sure we can choose to disobey God, just as a child can disobey their parents, we are adopted sons of God, you will be disciplined, but you don't lose your salvation. God will not forsake you, Jesus died for our sins why would we lose our eternal salvation by sinning when Jesus already took away our sins once and for ever and promised eternal life to all who believe. Us believing in the first place is only possible because of Gods intervention, the Holy Spirit leading us into the truth, to take away people's eternal salvation would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Acts 16:30-31, the entire Gospel of John, all of Jesus' promises of eternal life would be a lie, and would render his death on the cross for sins meaningless if we still have to obey the law and never sin to be saved. If James was truly teaching a works salvation or loss of salvation when it says "faith without works is dead" then that would blatantly contradict both Jesus and Pauls teachings, and we know scripture cannot contradict. the saying "faith without works is dead" implies that faith without works is possible in the first place. nowhere does that say "lose your eternal salvation/you're not saved if you don't do good works"

The main problem with the works salvation bad news (not gospel) is you have people sneaky and dishonest false brethren backloading works into salvation hindering soul winning they will say "well we are not saved by works but true faith will have works" or "truly saved Christians will produce evidence" or "no truly saved Christian will still sin, or practice willful sinning" "if you don't change then you were never saved" saying that someone must produce good works or show outward evidence that they are really saved or get re-saved after losing it. this is the same as teaching a works salvation you're just being dishonest, not upfront about it. "you are teaching a license to sin perverting Gods grace" first off Jude 4 is not talking about OSAS, OSAS doesn't deny the Lord Jesus Christ, it glorifies and gives him all the credit for our salvation, and not works lest any man should boast. Jesus taught eternal security in the Gospel of John and he also never taught that we have a license to sin. why assume I am giving people a license to sin by teaching what the Bible says. and the Bible is clear that salvation is not based on any works and it is a free gift. Jesus died for sins once and for all, he said it is finished, our sins were nailed to the cross. there is no other name that saves, when people cannot separate the flesh and the spirit you get all these crazy works salvation doctrines. Yes it is true you are changed on the inside at the moment of salvation, it is a one time event, you're born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, but that doesn't automatically mean you're going to start living a totally different holy sinless perfection life, never sin again and no longer struggle with sin, yes the Bible says all things are become new, but in context this doesn't mean that our fleshly sin nature goes away (Romans 7:14-25) not that we are now sinlessly perfect. we are all sinners Paul was explicitly clear, the flesh is sinful "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Paul said " I die daily" and that the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Galatians 5:17, Paul then goes on to warn us believers about the lusts of the flesh, and all sorts of sins, why would he need to do that if true Christians can't ever sin?

I know many churches teach calvinist/lordship salvation, repent of your sins to be saved false gospels. And many of these street preachers you hear teach conditional security, you can lose salvation, sinless perfectionism. if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us and the flesh is still sinful. going out there preaching that you must turn from all your sins to be saved is not biblical, is getting nobody saved, you're teaching another gospel, you are a lying hypocrite who is just as sinful as everybody else. the Bible and Jesus is clear you can't ever lose salvation, Paul and Jesus both explicitly taught this, before you attack and say "cheap grace, easy believeism" yet Jesus taught this, you're calling Jesus teachings cheap? listen gospel means good news, how is "obey all my commands or lose your salvation" good news? how can anybody go on with life thinking that if they sin one time they lost their salvation, especially when we are all guilty sinners. Jesus promised eternal life to all that believe on him, not temporary life. It is a simple thing, people are complicating it adding works to something that is simple.

should you live however you want after you are eternally secure? No! and I am not promoting that, nor was Jesus or Paul promoting that when they taught we are saved by grace through faith not works. that doesn't mean I am not against sin, and I am not saying that all sin is now ok for the saved and that now you should live however you want and completely disobey God. no that is a false accusation something I never said but get accused of all the time when I evangelize. But in reality I say we are to fear God and keep his commandments, Apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners and a carnal Christian, don't say you're better than he was, you're not sinlessly perfect, Paul Washer and other Lordship salvation preachers are wrong false gospel works salvation saying there are no such thing as carnal Christians, if that were the requirement for salvation nobody would be saved. And if Paul washer or anyone else wants to say they turned from all their sins they turned from nothing and are hypocrites. None are righteous no not one. and Without the shedding of blood there is no payment for sins. There are still consequences when we sin as saved believers in Christ, but you still have hope and know you're secure and you don't lose salvation because salvation is not by works Jesus paid it all and promised all those who believe in him he will no wise cast out, he gives them eternal life. Yes you can quote out of context verses that never mention salvation or use false bible versions that remove verses or add obedience or make salvation difficult, when our ancestors for hundreds of years used the KJV, Tyndale Bibles they must have all not had the true word of God, only now thanks to these modern versions do we truly have Gods accurate word, yet God promised in Psalms that he would preserve his word for all generations, which would be a lie if the KJV is a false Bible/inaccurate archaic bible like I hear so many false accusers anti-KJV slanderers say. hey, your ancestors all used the KJV it was good enough for them, why is it not good enough for us.

people will use these out of context verses that are not even talking about salvation to teach a works based salvation that you can somehow lose eternal salvation even though you did nothing to earn it in the first place, it was Jesus who did all the work, we just believe on him and are saved. It is "easy" because Jesus made it that way, he said narrow is the way, he didn't say difficult (I know modern versions added the word difficult in Matthew 7:14 changing Gods word) When salvation is clearly brought up in scripture it says believe in Jesus or the will/work of the father which is believe on Jesus. not ROYS or do good works to be saved. salvation is not a process, when the Bible talks about finishing till the end to be saved that is not talking about eternal salvation, Jesus and Paul taught In the New Testament that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus who is the savior, one time sacrifice for sins, not of works lest any man should boast, our good works are filthy rags and can't save anybody, the law doesn't save us, none of us are righteous no not one, Paul said he is the chief of sinners not "I was the chief of sinners but now am sinlessly perfect" no he said I am the chief of sinners the only sacrifice for sins is Jesus he is the only way, if we deny Jesus then there remains no more sacrifice for our sins. all of the False religions teach works salvation, Buddhism teaches you to have repent, Islam says do good works and believe to be saved, even Atheists can do good works, that doesn't save you. Jesus is the only one who says it is not by works, he is the only way.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

Well how do you explain 1 Corinthians 12:3
" and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.".

With Matthew 7:21-23 ????
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoer's".

"

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Well how do you explain 1 Corinthians 12:3
" and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.".

With Matthew 7:21-23 ????
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoer's".

"

the KJV version
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

let's break this down, first it says not everyone who says Lord Lord, so these are professed Christians that will not enter the Kingdom, why? It says they didn't do the will of the father, what is the will of the father is it good works? John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

so what is the work or will of the father? that you believe on the Son.

the second verse here: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are people who are trusting and bragging about their good works they did on Earth, maybe they were a pastor or helped the feed the poor a few times, but the Bible is clear we are not saved by works so these people though they say Lord, Lord, are not believing in him for salvation, rather their own good works. Many false religions believe in doing good works, that isn't the will of the father which is believe on the son.

The last verse And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now this verse is often falsely used to teach that Jesus is talking about believing Christians who still sin, as "Ye that work iniquity" but is this the true audience of this message those who believe in Christ alone that fall back into sin? look at the first part "And Then I will profess unto them, I never knew you" Jesus professes to these people that he NEVER knew them, not that he knew them for a time, or he knew them when they got saved but then when the believer sinned he lost his salvation NO! that is not what Jesus is saying, he never knew them. Now the last part "Ye that work iniquity" when you take this out of context it does sound like he is talking to everyone who sins. But in the context given in the previous passages he is talking to people he never knew, and are trusting/bragging about their good works.

the reason Jesus says "Ye that work iniquity" is because they are trusting their works, the law to save them, and they didn't believe on the Son which is the will of the Father. the Bible says our good works are filthy rags, that salvation is by grace through faith not works, all who believe on the Son has everlasting life, not themselves, as they realize we are all sinners. Romans 3:23 and deserve hell, Jesus is the only acceptable payment for our sins. These people that Jesus is saying this too didn't believe in faith alone, the free gift of salvation, they believed in their works. And so they will be condemned because there are none righteous, all sin, if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

people who rip these verses out of context to teach you can lose salvation or a works based salvation, are the exact people who Jesus will say this too which is ironic.

Jesus was clear he gives eternal life to those that believe in him as the payment for their sins, they will never perish, not because of their works, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone, the will of the father is to believe on the Son, works are not apart of salvation, they won't save you because all have sinned and fallen short, without Grace through faith you will die in your sins, scripture is clear the way is narrow salvation is only through Jesus. it isn't difficult, it is narrow and most people don't want to humble themselves and believe on Jesus alone, they want to add their filthy works so they can feel like they "earned" salvation. But the saved who are trusting Christ alone for their salvation know that no works they can do could ever save them, otherwise we wouldn't need Jesus at all in the first place. Jesus came to save sinners, not to save self righteous, prideful, boasting, holier than thou works salvationists.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

Cockcrow said:
the KJV version
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

let's break this down, first it says not everyone who says Lord Lord, so these are professed Christians that will not enter the Kingdom, why? It says they didn't do the will of the father, what is the will of the father is it good works? John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

so what is the work or will of the father? that you believe on the Son.

the second verse here: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? These are people who are trusting and bragging about their good works they did on Earth, maybe they were a pastor or helped the feed the poor a few times, but the Bible is clear we are not saved by works so these people though they say Lord, Lord, are not believing in him for salvation, rather their own good works. Many false religions believe in doing good works, that isn't the will of the father which is believe on the son.

The last verse And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now this verse is often falsely used to teach that Jesus is talking about believing Christians who still sin, as "Ye that work iniquity" but is this the true audience of this message those who believe in Christ alone that fall back into sin? look at the first part "And Then I will profess unto them, I never knew you" Jesus professes to these people that he NEVER knew them, not that he knew them for a time, or he knew them when they got saved but then when the believer sinned he lost his salvation NO! that is not what Jesus is saying, he never knew them. Now the last part "Ye that work iniquity" when you take this out of context it does sound like he is talking to everyone who sins. But in the context given in the previous passages he is talking to people he never knew, and are trusting/bragging about their good works.

the reason Jesus says "Ye that work iniquity" is because they are trusting their works, the law to save them, and they didn't believe on the Son which is the will of the Father. the Bible says our good works are filthy rags, that salvation is by grace through faith not works, all who believe on the Son has everlasting life, not themselves, as they realize we are all sinners. Romans 3:23 and deserve hell, Jesus is the only acceptable payment for our sins. These people that Jesus is saying this too didn't believe in faith alone, the free gift of salvation, they believed in their works. And so they will be condemned because there are none righteous, all sin, if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

people who rip these verses out of context to teach you can lose salvation or a works based salvation, are the exact people who Jesus will say this too which is ironic.

Jesus was clear he gives eternal life to those that believe in him as the payment for their sins, they will never perish, not because of their works, salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus alone, the will of the father is to believe on the Son, works are not apart of salvation, they won't save you because all have sinned and fallen short, without Grace through faith you will die in your sins, scripture is clear the way is narrow salvation is only through Jesus. it isn't difficult, it is narrow and most people don't want to humble themselves and believe on Jesus alone, they want to add their filthy works so they can feel like they "earned" salvation. But the saved who are trusting Christ alone for their salvation know that no works they can do could ever save them, otherwise we wouldn't need Jesus at all in the first place. Jesus came to save sinners, not to save self righteous, prideful, boasting, holier than thou works salvationists.

Thanks for the reply . But you only answered half my question. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says " no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

But in Matthew 7:22 they provided evidence of their faith to Jesus. So they prophesied in Jesus name, They drove out demons in Jesus name, and performed many miracles in Jesus name through out their life on earth. Are you saying those people never said Jesus is Lord during their time on earth???

"no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

Were those people lying to Jesus in Matthew 7:22 ??? Or did they actually do those miracles??? Miracles are performed ultimately by the power of God, right ???

But Jesus NEVER knew them? "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" Jeremiah 1:5

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Thanks for the reply . But you only answered half my question. 1 Corinthians 12:3 says " no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

But in Matthew 7:22 they provided evidence of their faith to Jesus. So they prophesied in Jesus name, They drove out demons in Jesus name, and performed many miracles in Jesus name through out their life on earth. Are you saying those people never said Jesus is Lord during their time on earth???

"no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

Were those people lying to Jesus in Matthew 7:22 ??? Or did they actually do those miracles??? Miracles are performed ultimately by the power of God, right ???

But Jesus NEVER knew them? "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" Jeremiah 1:5

if saying Lord Lord was enough for salvation then that verse wouldn't be true, you're making something simple into a confusing mess. miracles is not how we are saved, salvation is simply by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. just saying the name Jesus does not automatically mean you're saved if it did then Matthew 7:22 is a lie but it is not. Just because you do miracles and say Jesus name doesn't mean you're saved, if it did then no pastor would ever go to hell because they said the name Jesus and cast out devils doesn't mean they are saved. you must do the will of the father which is believe on the Son for eternal life, if you believe in a works salvation Jesus will tell you this on judgement day, you are not believing in Jesus for salvation, you need to get saved and believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation, not your works, if not then there is no sacrifice left for sins. you're confusing/twisting scriptures, scripture doesn't contradict itself, and I've already rebuked that once. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Lost4words · Aug 16, 2022

Even satan has faith in Jesus!
OSAS is only true if you truly follow Jesus and repent of your sins and seek absolution from God.

Works come from faith. Good works. These are born out of true faith while following the above.

Judas had faith in Jesus. He believed in him but he sinned. He turned away from God.

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

Lost4words said:
Even satan has faith in Jesus!
OSAS is only true if you truly follow Jesus and repent of your sins and seek absolution from God.

Works come from faith. Good works. These are born out of true faith while following the above.

Judas had faith in Jesus. He believed in him but he sinned. He turned away from God.

that makes zero sense, salvation is not offered to Satan, whether he believes or the demons believe is completely irrelevant to our salvation, Jesus didn't die for Satan, he didn't die for demons, he didn't die for angels he died for sinful human beings that are made in Gods image, who believe and put their faith and trust in Jesus, not of their own works like Jesus and Paul say over and over in scripture, not of works, believe in Jesus to be saved, believe in the son for everlasting life, if you can't understand that then something is wrong. Judas never was saved he always was unsaved from the beginning Jesus knew he was a devil, that example is not relevant to our salvation as outline by Jesus and the Apostle Paul. if you're trusting your works for salvation and not by grace through faith in Jesus, then you're not saved Jesus was absolutely clear. He that hath the son hath life, he that hath not the son hath not life, and the wrath of God abides on him. there is only one way and you are not on that one way if you add any works, or anything to Gods clear word.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

Lost4words said:
Even satan has faith in Jesus!
OSAS is only true if you truly follow Jesus and repent of your sins and seek absolution from God.

Works come from faith. Good works. These are born out of true faith while following the above.

Judas had faith in Jesus. He believed in him but he sinned. He turned away from God.

Then 1 Corinthians 12:3 is a lie ?

If Judas believed at one time then OSAS is a lie too.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

And what about what Jesus said in John 14:15 ?

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

But we can sin as much as we want just as long as we believe in Jesus ??

So people who don't Love Jesus will be saved ??? They just gotta believe in him? They don't have to love him ?

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

Acknowledging that Jesus is Lord is not enough ???
That's not what Matthew 10:32 says.

"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.".

That's actually what the people in Matthew 7:22 did. They performed miracles in the name of Jesus. Not in their own name.

They acknowledged that Jesus is Lord for a good portion of their life obviously.

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

You just gotta say Jesus is Lord and believe his Father raised him from the dead . That's it.

The people in Matthew 7:22 seemed to believe that. But they went above and beyond. And performed miracles in Jesus name.

Yet they NEVER believed in Jesus? Ever??

That's hard to believe

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Then 1 Corinthians 12:3 is a lie ?

If Judas believed at one time then OSAS is a lie too.

Judas never was saved he was a devil from the beginning, I don't know who told you that Judas was saved at one time then lost it, but they lied, the Bible doesn't say that. Judas was always a devil, Jesus knew this from the beginning, you can never lose your salvation whoever told you that is a satanic unsaved false prophet trying to make you doubt your salvation which false its wicked and will send you to hell. Jesus promised eternal life, we know we have eternal life he has given it, that's what the Bible teaches, John 6 is clear how to be saved, he paid it all on the cross, it is by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. Judas is roasting in hell right now, he was never saved, the Bible never says he was saved, Jesus said he will lose none of them that the Father gives him. He didn't lose Judas, he knew from the beginning that Judas was a devil and would betray him, Jesus said it would have been better if Judas was never born which proves he is roasting in eternal hell fire right now, that's what the Bible teaches.

johnjanuary1984 said:
And what about what Jesus said in John 14:15 ?

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

But we can sin as much as we want just as long as we believe in Jesus ??

So people who don't Love Jesus will be saved ??? They just gotta believe in him? They don't have to love him ?

That verse is not proof of a works salvation, obedience to be saved is not what the Bible teaches, Jesus said you can never lose your eternal salvation. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Salvation is not dependent on us keeping commandments that verse is not talking about salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith not of works lest any man should boast. Nobody is sinlessly perfect, only Jesus never sinned. if you can't have faith in Jesus for salvation, you have a problem with that, and you can't trust Jesus for your eternal salvation then you're not saved. and you need to get saved the Bible way, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, not of works lest any man should boast, salvation is by grace through faith, once you're saved you're always saved John 3:15-16, you will never perish, never thirst in Hell. Salvation is a free gift

Cockcrow · Aug 16, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Acknowledging that Jesus is Lord is not enough ???
That's not what Matthew 10:32 says.

"Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.".

That's actually what the people in Matthew 7:22 did. They performed miracles in the name of Jesus. Not in their own name.

They acknowledged that Jesus is Lord for a good portion of their life obviously.

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit".

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

You just gotta say Jesus is Lord and believe his Father raised him from the dead . That's it.

The people in Matthew 7:22 seemed to believe that. But they went above and beyond. And performed miracles in Jesus name.

Yet they NEVER believed in Jesus? Ever??

That's hard to believe

you're not listening to the message, I've given you the Bible way that we are saved, proved from the Bible that salvation is by grace through faith not works, Matthew 7:21-23 is not teaching that believers can lose their salvation, if you can't accept that Jesus gives us eternal life then there remains no more sacrifice for sins, he is the only way. The gospel "good news" is that Jesus died for our sins, all that believe in him will never perish but have eternal life, he will lose none of them. Works salvation/Conditional security is not good news, that would make Jesus death on the cross for our sins meaningless. Why would we even need Jesus at all if we are saved by our works, or obeying the law it makes no sense. Jesus died once and for ever he doesn't get crucified again and again for sins, no it was one time sufficient sacrifice for our sins.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 16, 2022

Why do the passages that you quote mean what they say? But the passages I quote don't mean what they say ?

Soyeong · Aug 16, 2022

Cockcrow said:
This is what you get accused of constantly if you share the good news and say OSAS trying to win souls to the Lord Jesus Christ, My response to the license to sin false accusers or the James 2 works salvation crowd is that technically someone can still live a completely wicked lifestyle and still be saved, but there will be consequences on this earth, God is not mocked and he chastises those he loves. Sure we can choose to disobey God, just as a child can disobey their parents, we are adopted sons of God, you will be disciplined, but you don't lose your salvation. God will not forsake you, Jesus died for our sins why would we lose our eternal salvation by sinning when Jesus already took away our sins once and for ever and promised eternal life to all who believe. Us believing in the first place is only possible because of Gods intervention, the Holy Spirit leading us into the truth, to take away people's eternal salvation would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, Acts 16:30-31, the entire Gospel of John, all of Jesus' promises of eternal life would be a lie, and would render his death on the cross for sins meaningless if we still have to obey the law and never sin to be saved. If James was truly teaching a works salvation or loss of salvation when it says "faith without works is dead" then that would blatantly contradict both Jesus and Pauls teachings, and we know scripture cannot contradict. the saying "faith without works is dead" implies that faith without works is possible in the first place. nowhere does that say "lose your eternal salvation/you're not saved if you don't do good works"

Do you affirm or deny that someone could do what it takes to become saved and then choose to spent the rest of their life sinning as much as they can and that they will still be saved? If you affirm that, then you are affirming that once we have been saved that we have a license to sin, which is contrary to what the Bible teaches, but if you deny that, then you are denying OSAS. Sure, there will be consequences on this earth of some chooses cram as much sin into their life as they can, but OSAS affirms that someone can freely choose to do that without it affecting their salvation.

There is a range of what people thing it takes to loose salvation, but generally it is not that we have to obey the law and never sin in order to avoid losing our salvation, or that we will loose our salvation if we sin enough times, rather, it is more along the lines of whether someone can intentionally turn their back on God, reject the content of God's gift of salvation, sin as much as they can, and still be saved against their will.

Here are some verses that speak against earning our salvation/eternal life as a wage by obeying God's law: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21.

Here are some verses to speak in support of our salvation/eternal life requiring us to obey God's law: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

So the issue is that there must be a reason that our salvation/eternal life requires us to choose to obey God's law other than in order to earn it as wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying God's law, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so again God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of saving us from not living in obedience to it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. So how can it be accurate to think that someone is still being saved from continuing to live in sin while they are continuing to live in sin, they are refusing to participate in that training, and they are rejecting the content of God's gift of salvation? How can it be accurate to think that someone is still believing in Jesus while they are living in a way that expresses that they no longer believe in him?

The main problem with the works salvation bad news (not gospel) is you have people sneaky and dishonest false brethren backloading works into salvation hindering soul winning they will say "well we are not saved by works but true faith will have works" or "truly saved Christians will produce evidence" or "no truly saved Christian will still sin, or practice willful sinning" "if you don't change then you were never saved" saying that someone must produce good works or show outward evidence that they are really saved or get re-saved after losing it. this is the same as teaching a works salvation you're just being dishonest, not upfront about it. "you are teaching a license to sin perverting Gods grace" first off Jude 4 is not talking about OSAS, OSAS doesn't deny the Lord Jesus Christ, it glorifies and gives him all the credit for our salvation, and not works lest any man should boast. Jesus taught eternal security in the Gospel of John and he also never taught that we have a license to sin. why assume I am giving people a license to sin by teaching what the Bible says. and the Bible is clear that salvation is not based on any works and it is a free gift. Jesus died for sins once and for all, he said it is finished, our sins were nailed to the cross. there is no other name that saves, when people cannot separate the flesh and the spirit you get all these crazy works salvation doctrines. Yes it is true you are changed on the inside at the moment of salvation, it is a one time event, you're born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, but that doesn't automatically mean you're going to start living a totally different holy sinless perfection life, never sin again and no longer struggle with sin, yes the Bible says all things are become new, but in context this doesn't mean that our fleshly sin nature goes away (Romans 7:14-25) not that we are now sinlessly perfect. we are all sinners Paul was explicitly clear, the flesh is sinful "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Paul said " I die daily" and that the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Galatians 5:17, Paul then goes on to warn us believers about the lusts of the flesh, and all sorts of sins, why would he need to do that if true Christians can't ever sin?

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting and doing good works in obedience to it is intrinsically part of the Gospel message, and this is very good news. Likewise, in Acts 2:38, when Peter called for his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, God's law is how they knew what sin is. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel was on the same page about repenting from our sins. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, so while we do not earn our salvation by doing good works, repenting and doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of the Gospel, and this is not sneaky, or backloading, dishonest, false, backloading, or hindering, but rather works are inherently part of the Gospel message. It is contradictory for someone to think that they are being saved from not doing good works with involving doing good works. The fact that OSAS affirms that we are free to return to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to free us from is rejecting what Jesus gave himself to accomplish.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation as a wage, doing good works is nevertheless inherently part of our salvation from not doing good works. The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to drive a Ferrari for an our, where the fact that it requires 100% of their participation of doing the work of driving it does not detract from the fact that the opportunity was 100% made available to them as a gift. In a similar way, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life.

I know many churches teach calvinist/lordship salvation, repent of your sins to be saved false gospels. And many of these street preachers you hear teach conditional security, you can lose salvation, sinless perfectionism. if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us and the flesh is still sinful. going out there preaching that you must turn from all your sins to be saved is not biblical, is getting nobody saved, you're teaching another gospel, you are a lying hypocrite who is just as sinful as everybody else. the Bible and Jesus is clear you can't ever lose salvation, Paul and Jesus both explicitly taught this, before you attack and say "cheap grace, easy believeism" yet Jesus taught this, you're calling Jesus teachings cheap? listen gospel means good news, how is "obey all my commands or lose your salvation" good news? how can anybody go on with life thinking that if they sin one time they lost their salvation, especially when we are all guilty sinners. Jesus promised eternal life to all that believe on him, not temporary life. It is a simple thing, people are complicating it adding works to something that is simple.

Again, you are burning a straw man, it's not about sinless perfectionism, but about whether someone can intentionally turn their back on God. Jesus did not teach easy believes, but that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him (Matthew 7:23), yet you think people who are workers of lawlessness will not be told to depart from him. The gift of getting to express God's nature in obedience to His law and getting to multiply the Kingdom of God is extremely good news.

To use an analogy, it is like we are appliances in a house with unlimited electricity and we can stay running forever as long as we remain plugged into the outlet that is our source of eternal life, but someone is not going to last very long if they take themselves out of the outlet. Eternal life is the quality of the type of life that goes on forever, but we need to follow God's instructions for how to have that quality. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so he is the one who added works to it, and obedience to God's commandments is the way to believe on him.

should you live however you want after you are eternally secure? No! and I am not promoting that, nor was Jesus or Paul promoting that when they taught we are saved by grace through faith not works. that doesn't mean I am not against sin, and I am not saying that all sin is now ok for the saved and that now you should live however you want and completely disobey God. no that is a false accusation something I never said but get accused of all the time when I evangelize. But in reality I say we are to fear God and keep his commandments, Apostle Paul called himself the chief of sinners and a carnal Christian, don't say you're better than he was, you're not sinlessly perfect, Paul Washer and other Lordship salvation preachers are wrong false gospel works salvation saying there are no such thing as carnal Christians, if that were the requirement for salvation nobody would be saved. And if Paul washer or anyone else wants to say they turned from all their sins they turned from nothing and are hypocrites. None are righteous no not one. and Without the shedding of blood there is no payment for sins. There are still consequences when we sin as saved believers in Christ, but you still have hope and know you're secure and you don't lose salvation because salvation is not by works Jesus paid it all and promised all those who believe in him he will no wise cast out, he gives them eternal life. Yes you can quote out of context verses that never mention salvation or use false bible versions that remove verses or add obedience or make salvation difficult, when our ancestors for hundreds of years used the KJV, Tyndale Bibles they must have all not had the true word of God, only now thanks to these modern versions do we truly have Gods accurate word, yet God promised in Psalms that he would preserve his word for all generations, which would be a lie if the KJV is a false Bible/inaccurate archaic bible like I hear so many false accusers anti-KJV slanderers say. hey, your ancestors all used the KJV it was good enough for them, why is it not good enough for us.

It's great that you say that you support the fear of God and obedience to His commandments, but you also support a belief system that allows for people to cram as much sin into their life as they can without affecting their salvation. Do you think that Jesus and Paul used the KJV?

people will use these out of context verses that are not even talking about salvation to teach a works based salvation that you can somehow lose eternal salvation even though you did nothing to earn it in the first place, it was Jesus who did all the work, we just believe on him and are saved. It is "easy" because Jesus made it that way, he said narrow is the way, he didn't say difficult (I know modern versions added the word difficult in Matthew 7:14 changing Gods word) When salvation is clearly brought up in scripture it says believe in Jesus or the will/work of the father which is believe on Jesus. not ROYS or do good works to be saved. salvation is not a process, when the Bible talks about finishing till the end to be saved that is not talking about eternal salvation, Jesus and Paul taught In the New Testament that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus who is the savior, one time sacrifice for sins, not of works lest any man should boast, our good works are filthy rags and can't save anybody, the law doesn't save us, none of us are righteous no not one, Paul said he is the chief of sinners not "I was the chief of sinners but now am sinlessly perfect" no he said I am the chief of sinners the only sacrifice for sins is Jesus he is the only way, if we deny Jesus then there remains no more sacrifice for our sins. all of the False religions teach works salvation, Buddhism teaches you to have repent, Islam says do good works and believe to be saved, even Atheists can do good works, that doesn't save you. Jesus is the only one who says it is not by works, he is the only way.

If a friend gave you a book as a gift, then that doesn't mean that you can't lose it, so doing nothing to earn our salvation does not imply that we can't lose it. What else do you think that Jesus was intending to communicate by saying that the way is narrow in contrast with the way to destruction being broad? In Titus 2:11-14, being trained by grace to do good works is a process. To think that God commands filthy rags is expressing a extremely negative view of Him when in reality the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). Furthermore, there are many people described as righteous in the Bible, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is false that no one is righteous, but rather Romans 3:10 is referencing Psalms 14:1-3, where it says that no one is righteous who says that there is no God. God's law is the way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), the life (Deuteronomy 32:47), and the way o know God (Exodus 33:13), Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, and the way to know God (John 14:6-7), God's law is God's word, and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so this is the narrow way.

bbbbbbb · Aug 16, 2022

By the works of the Law you are saved and that entirely of yourself, not of God, in order that you might boast for all eternity in your glorious obedience and righteousness.

Or something like that. I know it is somewhere in the Bible, along with, "God helps those who help themselves."

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 17, 2022

Just look at what John 3:18 and Mark 16:16 says.

"Whoever does not believe will be condemned".

But what does Luke 8:13 say ???????

Luke 8:13 CLEARLY goes against OSAS theology.

"Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away".

Cockcrow · Aug 17, 2022

johnjanuary1984 said:
Why do the passages that you quote mean what they say? But the passages I quote don't mean what they say ?

obedience to Jesus and following his commands, repenting of sin, confessing sins is good and what the Bible teaches I 100% agree, the Bible teaches how we as Christians are to live, serve God, etc. but those verses don't have to do with your salvation, Jesus said he gives us eternal life, losing your salvation is completely out of the picture. Salvation when it is brought up in scripture, is a free gift, by grace through faith, Jesus seals us with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, losing salvation is not promoted in scripture, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have promised eternal life over and over to those who believe in him. I'm not denying your verses that you quote, I am simply saying they have nothing to do with losing ones salvation.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 17, 2022

Jesus said in Luke 8:13 that they DID believe!!!!

They were true Believers. But they fell away.

And that makes 1 Corinthians 10:12 make even more sense = "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!".

So when you add up Luke 8:13 + 1 Corinthians 10:12 obviously it proves that OSAS isn't ABSOLUTE.

You need to believe all the passages. Even if they seem to contradict each other. When you deny the passages I provided YOU deny the Word of God.

I don't deny the passages you qouted. I believe both. Even if they seem to defy human reasoning.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 17, 2022

Luke 8:13 isn't even talking about works. Luke 8:13 is very clear. Luke 8:13 proves believers can lose their salvation.

johnjanuary1984 · Aug 17, 2022

What your doing is called "Cherry Picking" . Your only picking the passages you want to believe and completely ignoring Luke 8:13 and similar passages.

I believe both , even though they seem to contradict each other.

One says Jesus is the Son of Man. But thee other says, No! , Jesus is the Son of God. Thee other says, No! Jesus was God in the flesh" . But then thee other says No , Jesus was the lamb of God.

All are correct ! Even though it defies human reasoning . The Trinity defies human reasoning. But you don't deny it.

Then why deny Luke 8:13 ?

"You can't live however you want and still be saved"

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