YEC's and Atheists: Strange Bedfellows?

PotLuck · Aug 29, 2004

To teach TEism thoughout the world there must be certain steps taken in order to do so.
1) Give the gospel to the people.
Through christianity is liberty. Dictators fear christianity simply because they know what it brings.
2) After liberty has been established then schools and colleges can be built to bring unoppressed education to the populace.
3) Educate the people concerning the foundations and principles of evolution.
4) Then mix the gospel and the teachings of Darwin.

You know what?
After looking at that there's just something that doesn't seem, well... :/

herev · Aug 29, 2004

Alchemist said:
But for YEC to say that a literal 6-day creation of the world 6000 years ago is the ONLY possible interpretation of the Bible is, imo, quite a naive position, and quite dangerous to Christianity.

nuff said
note this statement does not say one negative word about anyone who believes in a literal 6 day creation. It speaks only of those who discount anyone who disagrees as being less of a Christian

GodSaves · Aug 29, 2004

Did God create physical death to be part of His creation before the fall of man?

Didaskomenos · Aug 29, 2004

He never ordained eternal physical life.

GodSaves · Aug 29, 2004

Your interpretation says God never ordained eternal physical life. So I ask again did God create physical death as part of creation before the fall of man?

EDIT: Did you know that Paul taught that there will be a physical resurrection of our bodies. Not new bodies, but a physical resurrection of our bodies we currently have. He was quite adament in his preaching of this.

Didaskomenos · Aug 29, 2004

God did indeed ordain physical death ("create" seems to be an odd term here). This should have nothing to do with a physical resurrection.

GodSaves · Aug 29, 2004

I apologize, I am a bit slow, but Didaskomenos are you saying God ordained physical death before the fall of man?

GodSaves · Aug 30, 2004

double post sorry

theFijian · Aug 30, 2004

PotLuck said:
Out of the entire world populace how many are "up" on the theory of evolution? Spreading the gospel to the uneducated is going to be the major effort. My point is that mixing evolution and gospel simply won't work throughout most of the world when spreading the "good news" because those people don't have a clue about the concepts of evolution.

Nonsense. Just because people aren't clued up on evolution (a rather bold assertion on your part in any case) does not mean they will not grasp it.

PotLuck said:
One must first educate the peoples of third world countries what evolution is and who Darwin was and AFTER the christian gospel has been firmly established, has become at least close to being the predominant faith or religion, then and only then can TEism be spread.

Yes push your favoured YEC doctrine first because it's easier for the poor dumb people from the third world to understand. How about just spreading the gospel of Christ, leave the 'gospel' of Creationism out of it.

Didaskomenos · Aug 30, 2004

GodSaves said:
I apologize, I am a bit slow, but Didaskomenos are you saying God ordained physical death before the fall of man?

Yes, I am. Sorry for the confusion!

Vance · Aug 30, 2004

Yes, physical death was part of God's Creation from the beginning.

Vance · Nov 29, 2004

bump since the issue has arisen again

Vance · Dec 12, 2004

And again.

California Tim · Dec 13, 2004

Didaskomenos said:
GodSaves said:

I apologize, I am a bit slow, but Didaskomenos are you saying God ordained physical death before the fall of man?

Click to expand...

Yes, I am. Sorry for the confusion!

There appears to be a doctrinal inconsistency with the above statement and the verse below.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away"(Revelation 21:4)

If death is to be eliminated - along with sorrow, crying and pain, it would seem to indicate that all were related. Since we know pain and sorrow were symptoms directly attributed to the curse of sin, then it stands to reason death was also. All these are terminated in conjucntion with the "restoration" of the original relationship of man with god. This seems to clearly imply that "death" did not exist prior to Adam's sin.

herev · Dec 13, 2004

There is no evidence that death did not exist before the fall. It is only interpretation that gives that impression. Death had to exist before the fall--where there is food of any kind, there is death. Adam and Eve did eat, didn't they? Simple breathing microbes into our bodies can mean death to them. Addtionally, and this is not in agreement with the way others interpret, but God said in this day you will die--Adam didn't die (physically). Death was a fact prior to the fall.
Now, a good argument can be made that while in the Garden, man would not have died, but perhaps that is why God picked him up and put him there. But his body--as designed--was intended to die

Vance · Dec 13, 2004

Are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice, and your acceptance of that sacrifice was not alone sufficient to restore our original relationship with God? I sure think it is!

The point made in that verse is that we will no longer need to suffer death, either that of ourselves or others, or the sorrow or crying (not "pain" as you added) over the loss of loved ones. And that is true, since we will have new bodies in Heaven, which will not suffer physical death. This has nothing to do with the curse of sin that I can see. The curse of sin is that we suffer a loss of communion with God. Jesus' redemptive sacrifice was sufficient to restore that communion, thus giving us spiritual life.

Yes, we will still have to suffer the physical consequences of our sin. When we abuse our bodies, we will suffer the pain. When we lie and steal, we will suffer the guilt. But the restoration of spiritual life is complete upon salvation.

Notice that when God is describing the curses, He says nothing at all about physical death?

California Tim · Dec 13, 2004

herev said:
There is no evidence that death did not exist before the fall. It is only interpretation that gives that impression. Death had to exist before the fall--where there is food of any kind, there is death. Adam and Eve did eat, didn't they? Simple breathing microbes into our bodies can mean death to them. Addtionally, and this is not in agreement with the way others interpret, but God said in this day you will die--Adam didn't die (physically). Death was a fact prior to the fall.
Now, a good argument can be made that while in the Garden, man would not have died, but perhaps that is why God picked him up and put him there. But his body--as designed--was intended to die

Even if we assume the death of plant life is included in the concept of death as applied to animal life we would still have a problem. After we receive our glorified bodies, it appears we will still have access to food on the new earth. Yet Christ says there will be no more death. It still appears plain to me that physical death of animal life was non-existent prior to the fall just as it will once again be in the new heaven and earth. Plant life is not included in this "death" equation and apparently never was.

Vance · Dec 13, 2004

By your interpretation, we would all be vegetarians in Heaven!!! That doesn't sound like paradise to me! :0)

California Tim · Dec 13, 2004

Vance said:
Are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice, and your acceptance of that sacrifice was not alone sufficient to restore our original relationship with God? I sure think it is!

Not even remotely do I infer that.

The point made in that verse is that we will no longer need to suffer death, either that of ourselves or others,....

OK... why did we ever have to "suffer death" in the first place? That is the critical issue here.

California Tim · Dec 13, 2004

Vance said:
By your interpretation, we would all be vegetarians in Heaven!!! That doesn't sound like paradise to me! :0)

Bean and cheese burritos - hmmmm. I'm not sure I like the "sound" of that either - not to mention the smell (literally!).

YEC's and Atheists: Strange Bedfellows?

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