chaoschristian
Well-Known Member
mark kennedy said:
Until you recant this or at least provide a plausible explanation as to why it ought to mean other than what it says as written Mark, I have nothing further to say.
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mark kennedy said:For another thing you completly abandoned all Scriptural authority
chaoschristian said:Until you recant this or at least provide a plausible explanation as to why it ought to mean other than what it says as written Mark, I have nothing further to say.
For starters God is not a warrior against evil, evil is the absense of God just as darkness is the absense of light.
For another thing wisdom and knowledge do not come from experiments, flasks, beakers, radiometric dating, old bones or dirt.
The beggining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord but fools hate wisdom and discipline" (Proverbs 1:7)
Now before you go getting indignant because you think I just called you a fool, who do you think the fool in the Proverbs is? If you are reading the Proverbs and thinks its anyone but you then you are not paying attention.
"For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror, for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was." (James 1:23,24)
What to talk about my theology, lets talk theology brother.
mark kennedy said:I think you are using the term 'orthodox' pretty losely since you want to include theistic evolution. Now take a good look at the Nicean Cread including the part where God creates the heavens and the earth and tell me how this includes purely naturalistic processes in the minds of the early church fathers.
gluadys said:Of course it does. Unlike YECists, the early church fathers never considered that naturalistic processes came from any source other than God.
mark kennedy said:That is just plain silly, YECs never consider that naturalistic processes came from any other source then God. What we don't agree with is attributing to nature what is rightfully attributed to God.
gluadys said:But everything rightfully attributed to nature is ipso facto rightfully attributed to God as well.
Just because materialists and atheists do not attribute to God what they ought to is no reason for Christians to commit the same error.
Why do so many creationists speak of nature as excluding God?
shernren said:If this is not a warrior, tell me what or who is:
Who is this who comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he who is splendid in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me. I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."
(Isaiah 63:1-6 ESV)
Understanding God as warrior is crucial to a lot of OT theology, in particular the motivation and justification for the Canaanite genocides in Joshua.
Knowledge can come from all those, and more.
True wisdom only comes from the Bible.
And what does the Bible say wisdom is like?
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
(James 3:13 ESV)
Why should I not be indignant?
I keep having to remind myself that debates and discussions are not about people, they are about ideas. If I treat ideas like people, with basic rights to be heard even if they are disproved, then I will never have anything to believe in. But if I treat people like ideas, which can (and should!) be pounded and twisted this way and that to determine truth, then I have abused the image of God.
And so I endeavour to refute ideas and edify people. Now, I know that I am not perfect. I am very sure that you will find recent posts by me in which I have insulted people where I should have refuted ideas. And I wholeheartedly apologise for anyone whom I may have wronged in this way.
But Mark, we both know that the Bible has various criteria for folly and wisdom. A fool says in his heart "there is no God." A fool is lazy. A fool has earthly wisdom which is self-conceited and self-seeking. I will admit readily that I am indeed a self-seeker, that by God's grace I am learning to change. But you are a name on a screen to me, and I am a name on a screen to you, and if you do not know my life and my deeds and my friends how can you claim to know me enough to call me a fool?
In the same way, we are told that wisdom shows itself by reputable conduct, good works, and meekness. Am I truly lacking in these? Can you prove it? If you can show me from a few megabytes' worth of text where I have lacked these in my relationships with the people around me, then by all means reproach me. Surely I desire the rebuke of a wise man like you.
But until then, remember Jesus whom we both worship:
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.
(Matthew 5:22 ESV)
I do not see any point in talking about theology if it will not edify either of us, which I strongly suspect is the case.
Prove me wrong about that.
Opinions vary but the YEC perspective is about far more then the interprutation of a single chapter. This is about redemptive history past, present and future.
What I was pointing out is that the fool in Proverbs is you (speaking of you as the reader). I also mentioned the the Bible is like looking in a mirror, don't get me wrong, I'm in the same boat, we are all fools when faced with the wisdom of God. An online friend of mine argued strenously with me for weeks once that agnosticism was the New Testament view of God. It was a compelling arguement but obviously it left me unpersuaded. God often does convict us of or folly and vainity and we do well to take it to heart. Still we have to take a stand on essential doctrine and the historicity of Genesis 1 is no longer negotiable for me.
The context this is stated in is important:
"But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual demonic."
(James 3:14,15)
I'm not the one that made this a theological issue but since it is I intend to deal with it as such. YEC is the traditional view of the Church and it was unthinkable in antiquity to attribute or origins to naturalistic processes.
shernren said:Whatever else can be said about YECs, they do fall nicely into the box I've been carving out in my "Scientific Myth of Creationism" series ... good specimen of how the YEC perspective projects itself as being fundamental to the faith.
Doesn't the fact that many people who don't agree with you on interpretation of the distant past still agree with you on the pattern of God's redemptive plan in the recent past, present, and future to eternity, ever give you pause when you make blanket statements about how foundational YECism is? If YECism is all that foundational how come a lot of other theological structures which supposedly lack that foundation still stand as solidly as yours?
Let me be frank: I am not at all convinced that you have a proper Biblical perspective on wisdom, seeing the abandon by which you have tossed the word "fool". I take no personal offence at all - indeed, it is a good opportunity for me to check myself - but I am more concerned that from the way you have treated Proverbs and James you simply do not seem to understand how the Bible treats wisdom, and this may affect your interpretation of the Bible for the worse.
We should not be surprised that a modernist interpretation of "wisdom" invariably treats wisdom as mainly propositional knowledge. "Wisdom" is, when given a set of statements, knowing which statement is true and which statement is false. This is obviously how you have interpreted the passage in James you quoted:
James seems to connect "earthly wisdom" with "bitter envy and self-seeking", which is not something mere facts produce. But you have connected "earthly wisdom" to what you consider an unthinkable theological position: so "earthly wisdom" which comes from hell is logically assenting a certain set of statements, in this particular case statements against YECism, while "heavenly wisdom" which comes from above is logically assenting another opposing set of statements, in this particular case statements supporting YECism. Even supposing this is true, even if YECism is really from heaven and TEism is really from hell (what about OECism? Was it thought up by bored souls in Purgatory?) how is it related to the earthly wisdom of 3:14,15 and the heavenly wisdom of 3:13? I cannot see any connection unless you can prove that all YECs practice good works in meekness (and thus exercise heavenly wisdom by virtue of their YEC-ness) while all TEs harbour bitter envy and self-seeking-ness in their hearts (and thus exercise earthly wisdom by virtue of their TE-ness).
Again, looking at the full context of the Proverbs passage which apparently describes me:
The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth-- Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles.
(Proverbs 1:1-6 ESV)
Unless you can show that TEs always lack wise dealing, righteousness, justice, and equity, prudence, discretion, and guidance, then I don't see how TEism or a rejection of YECism can be called "folly".
And further on, Wisdom says of fools:
Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof, therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices. For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster."
(Proverbs 1:29-33 ESV)
I think the fear of the Lord must be something far more powerful than dry facts and rote agreement if rejecting it has such dire consequences. The fear of the Lord is more than logic, it is faith in action.
You really need some help with James, I don't have time tonight but we will get into this, trust me. Wisdom in Proverbs, James and the Logos in John 1 is not propositional, it is transendant.
We should not be surprised that a modernist interpretation of "wisdom" invariably treats wisdom as mainly propositional knowledge. "Wisdom" is, when given a set of statements, knowing which statement is true and which statement is false. This is obviously how you have interpreted the passage in James you quoted:
Wrong, the Jewish believers addressed in James and the Gentile believers in ICorinthians were doing the same thing. They were showing favortism toward the worldly and mistreating the poor at their love feasts. Now, you have not only distorted the clear message of James but you have grossly mischaracterized YEC. Young Earth Creationism has nothing to do with your (your mine or anyones) works, YEC is about the wonderfull works of God.
James seems to connect "earthly wisdom" with "bitter envy and self-seeking", which is not something mere facts produce.
But you have connected "earthly wisdom" to what you consider an unthinkable theological position: so "earthly wisdom" which comes from hell is logically assenting a certain set of statements, in this particular case statements against YECism, while "heavenly wisdom" which comes from above is logically assenting another opposing set of statements, in this particular case statements supporting YECism.
Even supposing this is true, even if YECism is really from heaven and TEism is really from hell (what about OECism? Was it thought up by bored souls in Purgatory?) how is it related to the earthly wisdom of 3:14,15 and the heavenly wisdom of 3:13? I cannot see any connection unless you can prove that all YECs practice good works in meekness (and thus exercise heavenly wisdom by virtue of their YEC-ness) while all TEs harbour bitter envy and self-seeking-ness in their hearts (and thus exercise earthly wisdom by virtue of their TE-ness).
No wonder you have so much trouble understand YEC, you have no clue what it is based on.
"For attaining wisdom and insight,
and discerning the riddles and sayings of the wise.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom
but wisdom and discipline fools dispise"
You left out the heart of the emphasis and you are going to preach good biblical expostion to me. You really need to work on your Bible study skills, I means seriously.
I can prove that every human being on earth is born in that exact condition and apart from Christ continue from that condition to perdition. This is the clear teaching of the New Testament and the main purpose of the Law of Moses.
That describes you, me and everyone. I don't know why this concept is so hard for you, perhaps you need to thumb through Romans some time.
The beggining of wisdom is the fear of the Lord but fools hate wisdom and discipline" (Proverbs 1:7)
Now before you go getting indignant because you think I just called you a fool, who do you think the fool in the Proverbs is? If you are reading the Proverbs and thinks its anyone but you then you are not paying attention.
"For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror, for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was." (James 1:23,24)
What to talk about my theology, lets talk theology brother.
Faith in action is not showing favortism since the Christian faith is not a popularity contest and friendship with the world is emnity (hatred) with God. The wisdom of God is foolishness to the natural man because the things of God are spiritually discerned.
God's wonderfull works in the distant past is redemptive history. Not myth, not allegory, not legend, not hyperbole and not primitive superstition. God acting in time and space is central to Christian theology and a denial of historical narratives is a denial of the Gospel.
mark kennedy said:So it does not matter if we attribute to naturalistic processes what is rightfully attributed to God?
The whole premise of the thread is that YEC is incoherent as a theology. My point is that YEC is based on solid Christian theology and it is TE that has abandoned tradional theological principles.
I realize that God need not micromanage everything but human lineage as not been an issue until modern times. There is no way Adam can be specially created and descended from apes.
The two concepts are mutually exclusive and there is nothing in Church history to indicate the concept a common ancestor for men and apes was ever entertained.
Science has come to be defined in such a way as to naturally exclude any inferance of a supernatural act of God.
If God does indeed act in time and space then we should consider a criteria for determining the historicity of an event.
The Bible explicitly describes miracles by the score and like it our not the Christian faith is a supernatural religion.
How is it any harder to believe that God became flesh and blood then it is to believe that he created the world and all of life by divine fiat?
You can't have it both ways, either God's acts in redemptive history are evident or they are not.
shernren said:My hang-up is that from what I see it is you who don't understand what wisdom and folly mean.
I was referring to your position. Your position puts wisdom in general as being a propositional acceptance of truth and a propositional rejection of falsehood.
To accept the set of propositions that makes up YECism as true is wisdom
and to accept the set of propositions that makes up TEism as true is folly.
Is that not what you have tried to say to me?
I have no idea what you are saying I am wrong in:
Aren't you precisely accusing me of being a fool by supporting certain statements which are derogatory to YECism? Despite not being able to see whether these statements do in fact lead to self-seeking and bitter envy in my life or not?
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