Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

marc b said:
you quoted it in your previous reply, how hard could it be?

Now you are inferring I am stupid? Is that part of your superior sensitivity to the Holy Spirit? Grow up.

marc b · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Now you are inferring I am stupid? Is that part of your superior sensitivity to the Holy Spirit? Grow up.

Again you are making things the way they are not. But by your reply it does look like you just confirmed you knew the question all along. So...have you a reply to my question?

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

marc b said:
Now you guys, claim you have a relationship with God. If you really do, why have you not sensed the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question?

Is this the question you are referring to?
You seem to be assuming that the Holy Spirit was speaking through the opinions of one side of this discussion among believers and not on the other side of the discussion. Thus claiming spiritual superiority on one side of the discussion.

Furthermore, it's a loaded question. What are my answer options according to you?
1) Yes, we sensed the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, but chose to ignore it preferring our demonic opinions instead.
- OR -
2) No, we did not sense the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, because we have no sensitivity to the leading of the Holy Spirit. (since we aren't believers)

That is what you are asking.
And you thought the OP question was evil? Wow.

RDKirk · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
So, your answer would be, "No." ?
If there was no afterlife, you would not be a Christian? You would pursue self interests (with no concern for others) since you were not threatened with hell in the afterlife?

That's a "false dilemma" fallacy. The choice has never been "Jesus versus "pursuit of self-interests with no concern for others."

Even today, if you approach atheists who live lives as "good people," they will smell the fallacy of that argument immediately.

Imagine if humankind fell and the main point was to be reconciled to God in this lifetime. That you could have a full life with a reconciled relationship with your creator. And at the end of your life you could pass from this life knowing that your life meant something.

I expect a good many reknown atheists and adherents to other religions have died believing their lives "meant something."

RDKirk · Jan 15, 2021

marc b said:
On the contrary most who are rejecting the question of this thread is seeing this as something like "would you continue doing moral Christian things without having a spiritual relationship with a spiritual Christ?". To which of course we said no. To us, spiritual connection and relationship with a spiritual being is everything. Doing "christianee" moral things is dead dry works that has no benefit even on this life. So we say "nada".

The real problem as we keep pointing out, is the question is badly made and just doesn't make sense in a spiritual perspective. If the driving question behind all of this was about relationship with God, then why wasn't the question framed plainly as that?

So no, my relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, the Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit, is sky high right now and is the most important thing to me. More important than life itself.

How about you, do you? If so, then we are all in the same boat in this thread. But this thread is dividing us all who love God by how ill thought out the question was framed, compounded by then changing it in the middle of the discussion. Most are now getting turned off by the persistence of some trying to create a divisive argument where there is none. We all love God, it is all about relationship with Him for most of us. Please let us all stop this exercise in futility. As I said before, I was heading out of this thread. But this statement about making this thread about our relationship with God who we treasure above all is the worse and deeply hurting. I could not go without addressing it first. Again please stop. This is displeasing the Spirit. There is no need to feel superior to others just because you think you have a relationship with Him while others are still struggling to grasp what Christianity is all about.

But then perhaps this is another spiritual attack, and you guys and this thread are allowing yourself to be used by the enemy to create further division? If so please check your hearts and see what are really your motives.

Yes.

Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. -- 2 Timothy 2

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

RDKirk said:
That's a "false dilemma" fallacy. The choice has never been "Jesus versus "pursuit of self-interests with no concern for others."

Even today, if you approach atheists who live lives as "good people," they will smell the fallacy of that argument immediately.

I'm trying to help you to process the question. Let's make it a real dilemma.

Would you choose to be a Christian if there was no threat of hell in the afterlife?

RDKirk · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I'm trying to help you to process the question. Let's make it a real dilemma.

Would you choose to be a Christian if there was no threat of hell in the afterlife?

You are moving the goalpost from one side of the field to the other and all across the sidelines.

I would be a Christian (rather than merely a "good person" of any other stripe) because of the promise of eternal communion with Him, which being a "good person" of any other stripe does not provide.

"Threat of hell" does not enter into it.

eleos1954 · Jan 15, 2021

MMXX said:
I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

Those in the OT believed in resurrection ... therefore believed in after life.

You can't put heaven and hell aside (even hypothetically) ... if doing so then God is non-existent. If there is not the high heaven (God's dwelling place) .... then Jesus (who is God) is non existent.

marc b · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Is this the question you are referring to?
You seem to be assuming that the Holy Spirit was speaking through the opinions of one side of this discussion among believers and not on the other side of the discussion. Thus claiming spiritual superiority on one side of the discussion.

I assumed no such thing. I just wanted to see if you were reading with an open mind and a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit on both sides, since you are already convinced of your side.

Saint Steven said:
Furthermore, it's a loaded question. What are my answer options according to you?
1) Yes, we sensed the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, but chose to ignore it preferring our demonic opinions instead.
- OR -
2) No, we did not sense the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, because we have no sensitivity to the leading of the Holy Spirit. (since we aren't believers)

Yes, it is a loaded question. It was meant to check your heart and motive. Your answers reveal what is inside of you. And I think it is fair to ask, because i have tried to answer almost all of your questions while asking none but this 1 only question in return.

Saint Steven said:
That is what you are asking.
And you thought the OP question was evil? Wow.

The heart is deceitful above all, agree?

So who knows what is the motive of the OP in asking the question, or of you who persist to push it.

What we do know, is the fruit reflects the tree. And this thread has been very divisive.

But thank you for finally answering my question. I wanted to see where your heart is not only for me but also for you. God bless... now i'm truly outta here.

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

RDKirk said:
I would be a Christian (rather than merely a "good person" of any other stripe) because of the promise of eternal communion with Him, which being a "good person" of any other stripe does not provide.

But wouldn't this mean that if there was no afterlife ("the promise of eternal communion with Him") that you would choose to not be a Christian? And... doesn't this also mean that you see no value in being a Christian in this lifetime. (before an afterlife) That cannot be what you mean to say, but they are your words. What am I missing here?

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

marc b said:
I assumed no such thing. I just wanted to see if you were reading with an open mind and a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit on both sides, since you are already convinced of your side.

Yes, it is a loaded question. It was meant to check your heart and motive. Your answers reveal what is inside of you. And I think it is fair to ask, because i have tried to answer almost all of your questions while asking none but this 1 only question in return.

The heart is deceitful above all, agree?

So who knows what is the motive of the OP in asking the question, or of you who persist to push it.

What we do know, is the fruit reflects the tree. And this thread has been very divisive.

But thank you for finally answering my question. I wanted to see where your heart is not only for me but also for you. God bless... now i'm truly outta here.

Seriously?
My answers were a revealing parody of your admittedly loaded question.
Now you use this admittedly deceitful thing you have done to "see where my heart is at"? And now you are planning to run away again leaving this evil you have committed to stand as truth? Wow.

Like you said, "... the fruit reflects the tree."

Saint Steven said: ↑
Is this the question you are referring to?
You seem to be assuming that the Holy Spirit was speaking through the opinions of one side of this discussion among believers and not on the other side of the discussion. Thus claiming spiritual superiority on one side of the discussion.

Furthermore, it's a loaded question. What are my answer options according to you?
1) Yes, we sensed the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, but chose to ignore it preferring our demonic opinions instead.
- OR -
2) No, we did not sense the Holy Spirit in some of the answers opposing this question, because we have no sensitivity to the leading of the Holy Spirit. (since we aren't believers)

That is what you are asking.
And you thought the OP question was evil? Wow.

ozso · Jan 15, 2021

marc b said:
So who knows what is the motive of the OP in asking the question

I didn't have much motive at the time. I was listening to someone talking about being a Christian once and he said he'd be one even if there wasn't a heaven. And I thought me too. Because it's a large part of who I am. As much a part of me as my nationality, race, and gender.

Now one thing me and the other guy share in common is we were both raised as Christians, and I'm sure it makes a difference when that's all you've ever known.

But anyways that crossed my mind on the day I made the first post in this thread. I probably should have thought it out more. Live and learn.

aiki · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Okay, thanks.
Which of these three doctrines of the final judgment best describes your position on the afterlife?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

I hold to what the Bible describes of the fate of the unrepentant wicked who die:

John 3:36
36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he who believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Romans 2:5-9
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

Matthew 25:41-46
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 13:24-28
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 14:10-11
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I'm guessing you hold to the second or third of the options you list above?

Luke 16:23-28
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

And so on.

Dkh587 · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
They could in the realm of the dead. Lots of strange goings on if you read ALL those passages. The trees of Eden ended up there as well.

There is no such thing as a “realm of the dead”. That is an English word used by the NIV translators for Sheol.

Trees don’t sing in Sheol. If there are “trees” in Sheol, it is because they are not literal trees.

thus, Isaiah 14 is not all literal, nor is Isaiah 14:9 a proof text of an afterlife.

Strong in Him · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
The OP creates a situation where there is no afterlife. So, in that scenario, Jesus would not speak about it as if it did exist.

I was replying to the title of the thread, which is;

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

If there had never been an after life then Jesus would not have said that there is, so his teaching would have been of a very different nature if, indeed, he had needed to come at all. Would he have been able to tell people to repent, to love God with all their soul, to talk about his return, the final judgement, heaven, hell, eternal life etc etc if there was no after life and we all face oblivion/extinction after death?
Wouldn't his message have been just along the lines of "it is a good idea to do good deeds and treat others well"? And some people might ask "why?" "Why shouldn't I steal, take what I want and live just for myself? This life is all that there is, and I want to be rich/comfortable while I'm here."

Saint Steven said:
Let me rephrase the question for you.

Would you choose to be a Christian if there were no consequences for your actions in the afterlife? (this assumes there is an afterlife, but with no judgment, or punishment for wrongdoing)

Yes.
Being a Christian is about a relationship with God now - peace, assurance, life and hope now. It's not a Spiritual insurance policy that comes into effect when you die.

RDKirk · Jan 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
I was replying to the title of the thread, which is;

If there had never been an after life then Jesus would not have said that there is, so his teaching would have been of a very different nature if, indeed, he had needed to come at all. Would he have been able to tell people to repent, to love God with all their soul, to talk about his return, the final judgement, heaven, hell, eternal life etc etc if there was no after life and we all face oblivion/extinction after death?
Wouldn't his message have been just along the lines of "it is a good idea to do good deeds and treat others well"? And some people might ask "why?" "Why shouldn't I steal, take what I want and live just for myself? This life is all that there is, and I want to be rich/comfortable while I'm here."
.

There were already people who did not steal, murder, et cetera, in every society. Jesus would not have been saying anything any different. So, I agree, He would just have been another philosopher.

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

aiki said:
I hold to what the Bible describes of the fate of the unrepentant wicked who die:

All three doctrinal views of the final judgment have biblical support, but none of them agree with each other.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Okay, thanks.
Which of these three doctrines of the final judgment best describes your position on the afterlife?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Saint Steven · Jan 15, 2021

Dkh587 said:
There is no such thing as a “realm of the dead”. That is an English word used by the NIV translators for Sheol.

Trees don’t sing in Sheol. If there are “trees” in Sheol, it is because they are not literal trees.

thus, Isaiah 14 is not all literal, nor is Isaiah 14:9 a proof text of an afterlife.

Sheol is the realm of the dead.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 15, 2021

MMXX said:
I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

If I Cor 15 is not true, then NO I would not be a Christian.

Dkh587 · Jan 15, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Sheol is the realm of the dead.

That’s not a phrase the writers of the OT used, just the NIV translators.

what are some other proof verses?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

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