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Would appreciate some wise counsel

clegane

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I'm engaged to my best friend, she is 3 years older and we are in our late 20's with good jobs. Some background info that would be useful is that we have very different backgrounds. I grew up in the church with a good family. When I got to college my family split apart completely. My mom is still a fervent follower of the Lord. My father; however, has taken to drugs and alcohol. It is not for me to judge his choices or his soul, but needless to say it's tough to have a good relationship with him. Anyways, I was very blessed to be raised in an environment where I was encouraged to live for Christ. It's by the grace of God that I'm a virgin today, and that I never fell into the hard core party/club scene. I attribute much of that for working in ministry throughout college, and for some great friends holding me accountable.

My fiance's background is very different. She grew up in a broken home her entire life. Her mom has been married 4 times, and she was abused by a previous stepfather. When she was in high school she was a wild child and partied and slept around quite a bit, and had a heavy drinking problem. Her senior year in high school she went to a Christian camp and found the Lord. Like all of us who meet the Lord, her journey since that day has had its ups and downs. Her first year out of college she got into a very abusive relationship. It culminated with her getting pregnant, and she got an abortion. When she gives her testimony, this is the hardest part for her to talk about. However, God is so good. About a year after that tragedy she got plugged into an amazing church that had a program specifically for women who had had an abortion. She has since been able to help so many people that deal with guilt from the same thing or other issues. She has the biggest heart I've ever come into contact with, and her ability to empathize with someone is simply amazing. Bottom line, if I could sum up her story in a couple of words I would pick words like "grace," "redeemed" and "made new." We met a few years after the above.

I think it's important to know our backgrounds to understand the story. We are getting married in 4 months. The planning process has gone pretty well, and I can't believe it's just around the corner. I can't wait! We have abstained from sex, but believe me, it has been hard. But as a christian mentor said, "if it wasn't hard then you probably shouldn't be marrying her." We're love birds - always writing each other notes, holding hands, making fun gifts, going on dates, taking spontaneous trips, etc. We solve our conflict well, and while we can always get better at communication, we tend to do a pretty good job.

Here's the tough part. She feels guilty sometimes that she isn't good enough for me. I think some of it stems from our very different past, and I think some of it comes from the things we enjoy doing even today. My best friends and I can enjoy going out and having a good time wherever we are. But rarely do I or any of my friends ever drink too much, and I've never seen any of my best friends drink so much that they've passed out no matter what the occasion is. Her best friends really enjoyed going out in college, and she misses it. She enjoys having a good time on occasion, and a lot of her favorite memories usually involve a lot of heavy drinking. When she reminisces about this stuff around me it makes me feel bad. Just the other day we were talking about what we're going to do for our bachelor/bachelorette parties. I plan to go to the country with my guy friends and just be boys. We'll run around, fish, play games, etc. We'll have a few beers, but I would be VERY surprised if anyone drinks too many. At all of my friends bachelor parties we've always enjoyed praying at the end of the night or the next morning for the man getting married. I told my fiance I was really looking forward to this. This made her feel bad. She told me that she was really excited about her bachelorette party because it was her last hoorah with her girlfriends. They're planning to go to the bars and drink too much and have a typical bachelorette party (no strippers or anything like that, just a lot of friends having too much fun). She even said that she was sad that her mom and my mom couldn't go with her because she thinks they wouldn't want to be around that kind of environment. She was kind of upset because she really liked some other bachelorette parties where the mom or mother in law came and joined in the fun. So I guess it made her feel bad when I told her we would be praying at my bachelor party since they won't be at hers.

Now I understand having a good time on your bachelor party. I mean if there was one day the Lord would probably be beside you having a beer, it would probably be in celebration of a pending marriage. So I'm not here to judge or get down on my fiance for her plans. If that's what she wants to do, no problem with me. I do hope she doesn't get drunk, and I know that she probably will, but that is not for me to control. But it does bother me how excited she is about this. The way she has talked about it recently makes me feel like she is giving up what she considers to be fun for me, and that makes me feel like some sort of controlling monster. I've never told her to give up anything, and moreover, I love her enough to want her to be happy no matter what -- even if that isn't with me. I don't want to make her feel guilty, and I'm not sure how not to. It's not like I'm telling her not to do something or that I've told her she's a bad person -- because she's not, and I haven't even alluded to those things. But I do speak my mind about what I enjoy, and I can't wait to pray with my best friends on my the night of my bachelor party. And let me be clear -- she is not some crazy party girl. We rarely go out. But every once and a while she enjoys a fun evening with her friends and away from me. I can respect that. We just have different views on what's fun. And that's OK. I just want her to make the best decisions for herself, for us, and to not feel guilty about it.

Another thing that has been difficult is that we are paying for our own wedding. Her mom & step-dad lost their jobs in a merger, and her real dad has been without work for over 2 years. As I mentioned previously, my father really fell off the face of the earth. He stole my car and sold it, so he definitely doesn't have any money. My mom has a good job, but she lost a lot in the divorce. She can't really contribute anything to our wedding either. That leaves it up to us. As funny as it might sound, I'm actually like the idea of paying for our own wedding. It's forced us to make a budget and have conversations about money, and allowed us to do whatever we want. Being that weddings are more for the women than the men, I've pretty much let my fiance do whatever she wants. She has a good job, but money terrifies her in general. For a while she wanted to have a separate savings account from me after we got married just in case something happened. This made me feel terrible and like she didn't trust me, but from her point of view from growing up, her mom had money taken from her from abusive husbands and were left with nothing on more than one occasion. Bottom line, it was a fear -- not in me, but just in general. We worked through in counseling, and she is now OK with a joint account, but it still makes her apprehensive. Anyways, she has almost no expenses, so she has been able to save a lot for the wedding. I make a lot more money than she does. The Lord has blessed me financially, and I would have no problem paying for a $50,000 wedding if need be. Fortunately, we capped our budget at $20,000 (for our city, that's well below the average). My fiance is an amazing bargain shopper. She can find 4 dresses and 2 pairs of shoes for $75. However, she is going shopping all the time. It's $50 here, $100 there, etc. This wouldn't bother me, but whenever I ask her to pay for something for US, she gets very defensive about it. One day she told me she couldn't buy me a gold wedding band (cost around $500) for the wedding. I told her no problem -- to me it's the thought and effort behind the gift. If it was a twisty tie that came with love, thought and effort, I'd wear it proudly. The next week she spent $100 the next week on clothes for herself - she told me about it because she was proud of herself for what all she got with the $100. That was an argument to say the least, but we worked through it. As a side note, the band she wants to compliment her engagement ring set me back about $2400. I didn't bat an eye. I fortunately can afford that, although I did have to save and forego buying some things for myself. But totally worth it -- I'm getting married! I just felt like she didn't see it the same way on her end. And really, its not like she doesn't have money. She makes around $51,000 and probably spends around $1,000 on expenses (her rent is only about $300 per month). If you do the math that's about $2,500 a month extra to save or spend after taxes. So that's why I felt bad -- I know she has the money, it just seemed like she didn't want to spend it on me. I'm not sure why.

Anyways, I want to love my fiance the way the Bible teaches -- as Christ loves the church. Unconditionally, and with my whole heart. I have to remind myself that I'm not in control of how she feels sometimes. After all, attitude is a choice. But I don't to make her feel guilty, and I also want to understand where she's coming from sometimes. As I said, we have very different pasts. And that's OK -- I love that about her. I love seeing who she is today knowing where she's come from. It's simply amazing. And I want to lead her the way a husband should -- in love and respect. Any advice for how to talk to her about some of these issues without coming across as judgmental would be so helpful. Thanks so much for reading -- I know it's long. God bless.
 

Puptart

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As a wordy person myself, that is an astonishingly long post even for me.

In my honest opinion, I see a long post with very few issues in it, and the issues that are there are trivial at best. I admit to having said "We can't afford that" to my husband before, but perhaps have bought something that benefited me later not really thinking on the same train of thought.

For someone spending, $100 a week over 5 weeks does not equal $500 once. Even though the MATH equals out, the psychology of money is a little different. When we spend less, but over longer periods of time, we don't think about it as much. My recommendation there would be to live on jars of cash rather than credit or debit cards. You can see how much money is in the jars, you record what is being spent on paper and you leave receipts in the jars when you take out money. When you can SEE the cash, and when you record the cash, you are way more conscious of what you're doing and where the money is going. If not physical jars then you can still do the whole process of receipts and writing down expenditures even with credit or debit, as long as everyone is committed to the process.

Money is the number one thing couples fight about.. even though you both have plenty of it, you can still find yourself arguing over the allocation of that money. It's possible she has a mental hang-up about where the money goes ("If I spend it on him, I'll have nothing left for myself so I'd better not spend it on him" sort of thing.. a fear more than a logical statement, you get what I mean I assume) but I can't say for sure not knowing much about her personally.

The way she has talked about it recently makes me feel like she is giving up what she considers to be fun for me, and that makes me feel like some sort of controlling monster

This stuck out to me enough to copy-paste it as I was reading. You shouldn't feel like a controlling monster because if she chooses to give up something for you then that's entirely her choice. She's marrying you, is she not? She clearly feels she isn't stuck in some "controlling" relationship, but in a loving one.

Have you ever considered that her trying to give up the alcohol/partying style of fun she enjoys might be because she envies the way you see the world? Imitation is the highest form of flattery, as they say.

Just because a person thinks something is fun doesn't necessarily mean it's good for them. If she's trying to kick the habit, it might be something you encourage rather than feel guilty about.

Now I say that fully acknowledging that I drink... I drink, and I get drunk, I don't have a problem with that.. but I do not go to bars, that's where I draw the line. I drink with my husband at home on weekends, and we may drink quite a bit at times, but it's just us and we're not out making fools of ourselves in public so as far as I'm concerned that's our prerogative.

I don't "get" wanting to go out and be drunk in public.. and I probably wouldn't want my husband doing it and he probably wouldn't want me doing it either. Having a night apart is one thing, but having a night apart just to get smashed with other people.. yeah I don't get it, I probably never will.

It also strikes me that perhaps she has a different type of friend than you do. If your friends are going to be praying at your party, and her friends want to go out and get hammered, that would indicate two very different kinds of people.. so in a way it's normal to see such a divide there based on the people involved.

You're a good person for saying "Well that's her choice and I'm going to let her make her own choices". But don't feel guilty if she's trying to give up some of her past choices as she moves toward a future with you. Maybe that's just part of the evolution of your relationship and the evolution of her as a human being.

She's had a dicey past and obviously she's come a long way in changing herself for the better. But that level of change is an ongoing process, sometimes without an end. She'll always be fighting demons of her past to a point perhaps, and finding things about herself that she may realize need to be adjusted. All you can do in the end is be an understanding person who supports her and encourages her, and it's clear to me you're already doing just that.
 
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clegane

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Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I hadn't thought of it in the way you said it before, and I think I'll start encouraging her as you said, but also want to be careful not to seem manipulative. She clearly has a lot more "baggage" so to speak, but that doesn't make her any better or worse than me. At the end of the day, we're both sinner and both have issues. God is our judge, not each other, and praise God that Jesus has redeemed us both for EVERYTHING.

It does bother me that she would get drunk without me, but in this one instance of her bachelorette party, I know that her friends will be there to keep her safe. And like you and your husband, our life with drinking is likely most similar to yours. She just enjoys it more than I do, whereas there are other things I enjoy more than she does -- like making out =). Thanks again.
 
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Puptart

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I came with a lotta baggage myself, I always find it so short-sighted of guys to pass on girls (or the other way around) simply because of baggage. I think of my husband as the person who helps me unpack all of those bags, since I don't need to carry them around anymore. He stuck it out with me when a great many couldn't give me the time of day, and that creates a strong bond between us. Some people need a little more support and consideration than others but it can certainly be worth it in the end to put in the effort
 
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Avniel

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Well I would like to say your first job so to speak is to remind your future wife that she is all you need and all you desire. I think that is always a good start for a marriage, that basic understanding. Then I think you should converse on the subject of how you wish to be all she needs and not being drunk. Tell her how you feel about her inner circle of friends and what their favorite hobbies are. I mean honestly I'm 25 and I am a college grad, most of my friends that were wild are no longer wild anymore. There is a time to grow and I think that is a very vaild concern of your's that your future wife not associate with people that still behave like its sophmore year. I think you can and should vocally speak that concern in a conversation setting, bring it up in premarital counseling that is what its for.

I mean as far as the money is concerned my mentor an attorney when he got married it cost 20 dollars and he gave that to the pastor who felt bad for him and returned. He told me that before I got married, and I always remember it.

Just being honest the wedding is a stressful time, being married can be stressful. But that is what honeymoons are for and family vacations. My suggestion for newlyweds is to plan one trip a year just to get rid of the day to day stress of life.

Other then that you have to pray for your family. God has the rest.

Be blessed brother
 
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paul becke

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"Any advice for how to talk to her about some of these issues without coming across as judgmental would be so helpful."

In a word, clegane, "Don't" would be my advice.

Imo, women are funny about security and money, so not even that. Encourage her to have a bank account of her own. By all means have a joint one as well. You don't have to have a personal one, of course, unless she becomes a completely hypochondriacally valetudinarian about her retail therapy and empties the account.

" And I want to lead her the way a husband should -- in love and respect," was your preceding comment. Don't even think like that. If you are a good husband, as I expect you will be, you will learn from her as well - maybe about some more important matters than the general run - and it's in most wive's nature to want to defer to you. Also, she will want to spend at least as much on you as on herself. Some things take time.

You learnt by rules from an early age, she has to grow into that kind of knowledge. Still, even at 71, I have never been able to get rid of a sometimes not-noticeably Christian sense of humour, and cursing outbursts. These things become deep-seated when we are young. But they are not the end of the world.

I fear your unrelenting, methodical earnestness may be too much for her in the end - but for your apparent willingness to learn. Loosen up. And don't take yourself too seriously as a formally-dutiful Christian husband. You shouldn't have to crystallize such thoughts in your mind as if you were dependent on a user's manual at all times.

In a few words, I would basically say, most of the time, have the attitude that you could just as easily learn from your fiancee, as she from you. You've obviously already had a favourable influence on the way she habitually thinks now; and I don't mean that judgementally, but in terms of her finding her true self - made by and for God.
 
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LinkH

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About drinking, the Bible says, "be not drunk with wine." The Bible say to exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Shouldn't you exhort those close to you? I don't see anything wrong with reminding your fiancee not to get drunk on her bachelorette party. If she has had a problem with alcohol in the past, or even if not, she could still do a party without any alcohol at all. If she invited Christian people, like a church group or something, they could still pray before the wedding.

As far as spending money goes, there are cultures where the groom 'buys' the bride, and cultures where the bride's family 'buys' the groom. In the Bible, the man or his family paid a bride price for the bride. In English culture, the bride's family paid the groom a sum of money, which is kind of like buying the groom or paying to take the bride off their hands if you look at it like that.

I prefer the Old Testament type culture. I married a woman where the groom or his family pay for the wedding. I paid for the wedding. I think I even did the dinner the night before. If it were me, I wouldn't feel like my fiancee would have to pay for anything before the wedding. If shopping is a 'hobby' of hers, that could become an issue later on, especially if you aren't making as much money down the line.

If your wife thinks she doesn't deserve you, that attitude can change over time. I don't think it's a bad situation to be in, to have a husband who is so good to her that she feels she doesn't deserve him. Christian marriage is supposed to reflect the relationship between Christan and the church, and we sure don't deserve Him.
 
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A2597

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The way she has talked about it recently makes me feel like she is giving up what she considers to be fun for me, and that makes me feel like some sort of controlling monster.
Not that I'd advocate drunkenness, but if you are not opposed to a few drinks, and she is not an alcoholic (Both of which I assume are not the case going by your post) after marriage and a time when it's just the two of you, you could surprise her with a bottle of her favorite beverage and have a fun night.

...a bunch of stuff about finances
Not certain what to tell you there. She has some apprehension about merging finances, understandable given her background. My Fiance and I are paying for our wedding as well, I bought both bands. She paid for her dress and several other things.. we're sharing the cost. Now, I would be curious why a $500 band seemed like too much to her. It may be that she was thinking it wasn't a good deal? Did she request the $2100 band for her ring, or was that your decision?



Just talk with her, open heart. Communication is *huge*. If you are having trouble doing so, go to a counselor together, until you are comfortable talking about these things. Don't be judgemental, or harsh, just be honest and tell her that *none* of this affects your love for her, but these things keep coming back to mind and you want to talk through them so you can put them behind you...and you can't do that without her help.
 
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clegane

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Thanks for the great replies. Communication is certainly key, and I think there is some wise counsel in disagreeing with a habit as a request or a demand. I'm learning that demands are not respectful, but a request is valid so long as we know that the other person can choose to accept or deny our request. At the end of the day, I love her, period. All couples likely have annoyances with each other that become more endearing over time (maybe?). I still have a lot to learn, but I'm going to try to not be so hard on myself too. I think because both of our families are "broken" so to speak, I have put an incredible burden on myself to ensure I'm going to be the best husband/father. In of of itself, I don't believe that is a bad pursuit; however, the reason behind the pursuit should be to glorify God and love my wife.

In response to the wedding bands, we went looking and she liked a specific band and said she wanted it. I know she would be OK without it or OK if I got her something not as expensive, but in the back of her mind I think she would be disappointed that it wasn't what she wanted, given that she knows I can afford it if I want to. With respect to the band I want, it's just a simple gold band. As I said, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal her. From my point of view she should have no problem affording it. But she might have a different point of view. But it's not like she expects me to pay for everything or anything like that.
 
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LinkH

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You don't have much right to make demands before you are married. And you shouldn't make them in the form of rude demands anyway. You should always be polite. But after you are married, it does make sense to make some demands, politely, and exercise leadership in the relationship to set the tone and expectations. Of course, any time you do this, it should be done out of love, not selfishness, since husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. It's best to do this early on. At some point, there will be bigger issues to have conflict over, and its best to resolve how those will be resolved early on.


I don't see a problem with your going into 'provider mode' now. My only concern with a situation like this would be if there is a tendency to being materialistic or a shopoholic. I tend to see things more traditionally. I see it as my role as a husband to provide for my wife, rather than seeing it as our mutual responsibility to come up with money. She is very diligent around the home, and also interested in ministering to others outside the home. I want to be the primary one to bring resources into the home, and if she doesn't do it, I don't feel ripped off.
 
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paul becke

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It's difficult to know/understand about the ring. It probably is a visceral recoiling at the thought of spending so much on a band, a kind of thrift thing. Also, not so difficult to understand her lack of a similar sentiment when offered by you, the choice of her very expensive ring . Perhaps it sprang from a confidence in you as a solid person and a good provider.

Don't put that incredible burden on yourself of tying everything up to the last detail. I don't think you could not be a good husband, if you tried. I have immense admiration for you and your pals, praying together at the end of a happy day's recreation. It did sound very odd to me - with the kind of secular 'locker-room' ethos* I was more familiar with in my younger days, and alas enjoyed, but you sound more like a group of angels/messengers - at the very least evangelical pastors. Every best wish to you and your fiancee. You surely deserve it.

* I don't mean necessarily bawdy humour, just a lot of humour and banter - which latter I still enjoy and is evidently not a sin, as such. But I envied couples who prayed together. My wife was very private about her prayers .... and her finances. Not that I was ever out put by the latter. We had so little, anyway, we'd have to have been mad to have been interested in each other's finances? Or should I say, 'madder'?
 
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