Will only a few be saved? A Look at 2 Esdras

Humble_Disciple · Jul 29, 2021

While 2 Esdras isn't included in the Jewish canon, Jesus appears to have quoted from it in Matthew 23:37-39:

2 Esdras 1
30 I gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But now, what shall I do to you? I will cast you out from my presence. 31 When you offer oblations to me, I will turn my face from you; for I have rejected your festal days, and new moons, and circumcisions of the flesh. 32 I sent you my servants the prophets, but you have taken and killed them and torn their bodies in pieces; I will require their blood of you, says the Lord. 33 “Thus says the Lord Almighty: Your house is desolate; I will drive you out as the wind drives straw

In 2 Esdras 7, God rejoices at the few who are saved, while not grieving over the multitude who perish:

2 Esdras 7
3 I said, “Speak, my lord.” And he said to me, “There is a sea set in a wide expanse so that it is broad and vast, 4 but it has an entrance set in a narrow place, so that it is like a river. 5 If any one, then, wishes to reach the sea, to look at it or to navigate it, how can he come to the broad part unless he passes through the narrow part? 6 Another example: There is a city built and set on a plain, and it is full of all good things; 7 but the entrance to it is narrow and set in a precipitous place, so that there is fire on the right hand and deep water on the left
49 He answered me and said, “Listen to me, Ezra, and I will instruct you, and will admonish you yet again. 50 For this reason the Most High has made not one world but two. 51 For whereas you have said that the righteous are not many but few, while the ungodly abound, hear the explanation for this.
52 “If you have just a few precious stones, will you add to them lead and clay?”
53 I said, “Lord, how could that be?”
54 And he said to me, “Not only that, but ask the earth and she will tell you; defer to her, and she will declare it to you. 55 Say to her, ‘You produce gold and silver and brass, and also iron and lead and clay; 56 but silver is more abundant than gold, and brass than silver, and iron than brass, and lead than iron, and clay than lead.’ 57 Judge therefore which things are precious and desirable, those that are abundant or those that are rare?”
58 I said, “O sovereign Lord, what is plentiful is of less worth, for what is more rare is more precious.”
59 He answered me and said, “Weigh within yourself what you have thought, for he who has what is hard to get rejoices more than he who has what is plentiful. 60 So also will be the judgment which I have promised; for I will rejoice over the few who shall be saved, because it is they who have made my glory to prevail now, and through them my name has now been honored. 61 And I will not grieve over the multitude of those who perish; for it is they who are now like a mist, and are similar to a flame and smoke—they are set on fire and burn hotly, and are extinguished.”
138 and he is called the giver, because if he did not give out of his goodness so that those who have committed iniquities might be relieved of them, not one ten-thousandth of humankind could have life;

Please compare the above to Matthew 7:13-14.

2 Esdras 8:1-3
1 “He answered me and said, “The Most High made this world for the sake of many, but the world to come for the sake of few.”
2 "But I tell you a parable, Ezra. Just as, when you ask the earth, it will tell you that it provides very much clay from which earthenware is made, but only a little dust from which gold comes; so is the course of the present world."
3 "Many have been created, but few shall be saved."

Please compare the above to Matthew 22:14.

2 Esdras (also confusingly called 4 Esdras) might have been excluded from the Catholic canon because it forbids praying for the dead:

2 Esdras 7
104 He answered me and said, "Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisive and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be ill or sleep or eat or be healed in his stead, 105 so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness and unrighteousness."

This is considered to be a Christian interpolation of 2 Esdras, which says that an innumerable group of people who confessed the Son of God will be saved:

2 Esdras 2
42 I Esdras saw upon the mount Sion a great people, whom I could not number, and they all praised the Lord with songs.
43 And in the midst of them there was a young man of a high stature, taller than all the rest, and upon every one of their heads he set crowns, and was more exalted; which I marvelled at greatly.
44 So I asked the angel, and said, Sir, what are these?
45 He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.
46 Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowneth them, and giveth them palms in their hands?
47 So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world. Then began I greatly to commend them that stood so stiffly for the name of the Lord.

The first two chapters of 2 Esdras appear in the Latin version of the book, but not the Greek. They are considered by most scholars to be Christian in origin for this reason, and more especially because they speak of the the Messiah in Christian terms and assert God's rejection of the Jews in language resembling the Christian theology of the second and third centuries C.E. "I gathered you as a hen gathers her brood under her wings," it states, apparently quoting a phrase used by Jesus in Matthew 23:37, "but now, what shall I do to you? I will cast you out from my presence." (1:30)

This section also contains a vision of the the Messiah as the son of God who ministers to the martyred saints in heaven: "Then I said to the angel, 'Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?' He answered and said to me, 'He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.'" (2:46-47)

Because of their Christian character, these chapters are therefore generally considered to be late additions to the work from the second or third century.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/2_Esdras

I don't know why the first two chapters should be doubted just because their language appears to be Christian, but the fact that they were not included in the Greek version is worth mentioning.

HTacianas · Jul 29, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
While 2 Esdras isn't included in the Jewish canon, Jesus appears to have quoted from it in Matthew 23:37-39:

In 2 Esdras 7, God rejoices at the few who are saved, while not grieving over the multitude who perish:

Please compare the above to Matthew 7:13-14.

Please compare the above to Matthew 22:14.

2 Esdras 7:70 seems to teach supralapsarianism, that God decreed only a few would be saved even before Adam's fall:

If you continue reading beyond 7:70 you'll see that the text does not support supralapsarianism. Those who are condemned receive condemnation due to their own choices and not by any decree of God:

72 For this reason, therefore, those who live on earth shall be tormented, because though they had understanding, they committed iniquity; and though they received the commandments, they did not keep them; and though they obtained the law, they dealt unfaithfully with what they received.

They receive punishment for their actions, and those actions are entirely their own. But how many will be saved is unknown. It says repeatedly "a few", but then the Revelation describes "a great multitude that no man could number".

Humble_Disciple · Jul 29, 2021

HTacianas said:
If you continue reading beyond 7:70 you'll see that the text does not support supralapsarianism. Those who are condemned receive condemnation due to their own choices and not by any decree of God:

72 For this reason, therefore, those who live on earth shall be tormented, because though they had understanding, they committed iniquity; and though they received the commandments, they did not keep them; and though they obtained the law, they dealt unfaithfully with what they received.

Calvinism has always maintained, perhaps paradoxically, that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world, and that humans are responsible for their sins.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2 Esdras 7
73 What, then, will they have to say in the judgment, or how will they answer in the last times? 74 For how long the time is that the Most High has been patient with those who inhabit the world, and not for their sake, but because of the times which he has foreordained!"

Humble_Disciple · Jul 29, 2021

HTacianas said:
It says repeatedly "a few", but then the Revelation describes "a great multitude that no man could number".

Should we take 2 Esdras references to only a few being saved as literal or hyperbolic?

HTacianas · Jul 29, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Calvinism has always maintained, perhaps paradoxically, that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world, and that humans are responsible for their sins.

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Keep in mind that Romans 9:22-23 is a hypothetical. "What if...". It's not meant to describe the plan of God, but to point out that we should not question God, "who are you, O man,..."

But please see this post regarding predestination:

Free will or predestination?

mikeforjesus · Jul 29, 2021

There were few before saved because few of them really wanted the truth to seek to honour God they did not want to hear the prophets who told them about forgiveness and to repent and it was also more strict before though just as God warned them there was condemnation under the old covenant and was only intended for Jews when God was with them now God speaks through His Son to whole world and He sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved

In the new covenant God has promised He will not remember sins to those who turn to Him while they can as it is said He justifies us from all things that the law of Moses could not justify as Moses taught covenant of death for sinners but Jesus become the only one now who can judge who has promised to forgive all who sincerely repent but they have to while they have chance because the bible says if we sin wilfully there is no covering for sin and you should expect if you continue that way you will be judged if one is not judged yet he should repent as he has chance if person is not judged it is because person has not got all one chances

Humble_Disciple · Jul 29, 2021

HTacianas said:
Keep in mind that Romans 9:22-23 is a hypothetical. "What if...". It's not meant to describe the plan of God, but to point out that we should not question God, "who are you, O man,..."

But please see this post regarding predestination:

Free will or predestination?

Just for the sake of being on topic, I've removed the reference to 2 Esdras 7:70 from my original post.

What I find really striking is the parallels between Jesus' words about the narrow gate, and how many are called but few are chosen, and the book of 2 Esdras.

HTacianas · Jul 29, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Just for the sake of being on topic, I've removed the reference to 2 Esdras 7:70 from my original post.

What I find really striking is the parallels between Jesus' words about the narrow gate, and how many are called but few are chosen, and the book of 2 Esdras.

No one knows when it was written. Jesus may be quoting 2 Esdras, or 2 Esdras may be quoting Jesus. It could also be that the "narrow gate" was a common phrase used at the time so it was used independently. People in modern times quote Benjamin Franklin but have never read anything by Benjamin Franklin. Some of his sayings have simply become part of the language.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 29, 2021

HTacianas said:
No one knows when it was written. Jesus may be quoting 2 Esdras, or 2 Esdras may be quoting Jesus. It could also be that the "narrow gate" was a common phrase used at the time so it was used independently. People in modern times quote Benjamin Franklin but have never read anything by Benjamin Franklin. Some of his sayings have simply become part of the language.

This is considered to be a Christian interpolation of 2 Esdras, which says that an innumerable group of people who confessed the Son of God will be saved:

2 Esdras 2
42 I Esdras saw upon the mount Sion a great people, whom I could not number, and they all praised the Lord with songs.
43 And in the midst of them there was a young man of a high stature, taller than all the rest, and upon every one of their heads he set crowns, and was more exalted; which I marvelled at greatly.
44 So I asked the angel, and said, Sir, what are these?
45 He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.
46 Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowneth them, and giveth them palms in their hands?
47 So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world. Then began I greatly to commend them that stood so stiffly for the name of the Lord.

Maria Billingsley · Jul 29, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
While 2 Esdras isn't included in the Jewish canon, Jesus appears to have quoted from it in Matthew 23:37-39:

In 2 Esdras 7, God rejoices at the few who are saved, while not grieving over the multitude who perish:

Please compare the above to Matthew 7:13-14.

Please compare the above to Matthew 22:14.

2 Esdras (also confusingly called 4 Esdras) might have been excluded from the Catholic canon because it forbids praying for the dead:

This is considered to be a Christian interpolation of 2 Esdras, which says that an innumerable group of people who confessed the Son of God will be saved:

I don't know why the first two chapters should be doubted just because their language appears to be Christian, but the fact that they were not included in the Greek version is worth mentioning.

All through the generations there was only a "remnant "that remained faithful. This faithful remnant is thoroughly explained by Paul in his letters.
Be blessed.

Blade · Jul 29, 2021

Me .. I have never after reading the word came away with only few will be saved. Context matters..who what why when reading. But..

Christ did say "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains." So many are blind.. hard to judge someone on something they never heard or were blind to. Then just WHOS Jesus will He judge them on NOT believing in?

Jesus is real.. and fact everyone gets a choice..how that happens I have no clue. I have kids.. there is nothing I would not do to help to save them. Now GOD .. amp that up ..never ending love He has.. this is His creation. He left heaven became His own creation and died for the SIN of the world.

Right now what the world is judged on is they do not know Him. So... maybe WE should be showing sharing about Him..

Humble_Disciple · Jul 31, 2021

The same God who calls His elect while letting the rest of humanity perish is the same God who chose Noah and his family while flooding the entire earth, and the same God who chose Israel while commanding the slaughter of entire Gentile villages. We should be thankful that, out of His grace, God has chosen anyone unto salvation.

On the other hand, God promised Abraham that his descendants would be innumerable as the stars (Genesis 15:5, Galatians 3:7). “A great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages” will ultimately by saved, by God’s calling His elect unto Himself. (Revelation 7:9-10)

While the number of Noah’s family and of the nation of Israel was indeed small, the number of God’s elect, by the time the world ends, will be innumerable. You can bank on it. Some of the greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists, due to their assurance that God would use their preaching to draw His elect unto Himself.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 4, 2021

While 2 Esdras might not have the same authority as sacred scripture, it's nonetheless edifying to read, especially since Jesus Himself quoted from it.

Here is proof that 2 Esdras was of Jewish, rather than Christian authorship:

2 Esdras 7
28 For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. 29 After those years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. 30 Then the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings, so that no one shall be left.

The Book of Revelation was written as a corrective of 2 Edras, since 2 Esdras was written with the mistaken belief that Christ's kingdom on earth would reign for four hundred years, rather than a thousand years. The number of four hundred was based on the length of Israel's captivity in Egypt.

While it might seem like only a few will be saved, it will end up being a vast multitude at the end of history:

2 Esdras 2
42 I Esdras saw upon the mount Sion a great people, whom I could not number, and they all praised the Lord with songs.
43 And in the midst of them there was a young man of a high stature, taller than all the rest, and upon every one of their heads he set crowns, and was more exalted; which I marvelled at greatly.
44 So I asked the angel, and said, Sir, what are these?
45 He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.
46 Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowneth them, and giveth them palms in their hands?
47 So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world. Then began I greatly to commend them that stood so stiffly for the name of the Lord.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Please also keep in mind that 2 Esdras was excluded from the Catholic canon, likely because it taught against praying for the dead.

2 Esdras 7
104 He answered me and said, "Since you have found favor in my sight, I will show you this also. The day of judgment is decisive and displays to all the seal of truth. Just as now a father does not send his son, or a son his father, or a master his servant, or a friend his dearest friend, to be ill or sleep or eat or be healed in his stead, 105 so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall any one lay a burden on another; for then every one shall bear his own righteousness and unrighteousness."

Will only a few be saved? A Look at 2 Esdras

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