The gentiles as well as the Jews had the Torah read to them every Shabbat... so they all knew well and never disagreed that eating what was forbidden , eating what was unclean, was not of faith - it was not changed by Jesus.Then Paul would most certainly tell the New Convert Gentile who was eating slugs or swine's flesh, Unclean according to God, to "Abstain" for eating it as well.
So is Romans 14 not about teaching us not to judge each-other ?
Truly there are many who us this chapter to justify unrighteousness by making that claim. But if a man reads what Paul actually says, in conjunction with his other teaching, it is clear he didn't write this letter for that purpose.
Rom. 1: 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to "doubtful" disputations.
"Disputation" = "a debate about right and wrong."
A Judgment was made in the opening sentence. "To the Weak in faith".
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Another Judgment.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Another Judgment.
Surely if you see your brother stealing from someone, or committing fornication, or polluting themselves with Idols, or eating unclean foods, it would be the utmost Love towards him, to point out that the God of the Bible, that Jesus told us to worship, Esteems these works of man "As Wrong" or "Unrighteous".
WE would not "Judge" each other, but certainly we should be able to Judge between God's definition of right and wrong and share God's definition with a brother. After all, true Faith and respect is from the heart. As Paul also teaches, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Notice Paul didn't say, "Let every man create his own definition of righteousness".
If having milk on the table makes meat unclean in a brother's mind, or if he believes all meat is unclean and only eats herbs, to him it is unclean. There is no unrighteousness committed here. Don't cause this brother grief over such a thing by judging him.
Paul isn't saying, or even implying, that the "weak in faith" should be allowed to walk in unrighteous. Not here, and not anywhere in the Bible.
What is 'unrighteous' about eating only vegetables ?
I would 95 % agree, however, it does not match the very subject we are discussing, to say the least.Truly there are many who us this chapter to justify unrighteousness by making that claim. But if a man reads what Paul actually says, in conjunction with his other teaching, it is clear he didn't write this letter for that purpose.
Rom. 1: 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to "doubtful" disputations.
"Disputation" = "a debate about right and wrong."
A Judgment was made in the opening sentence. "To the Weak in faith".
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Another Judgment.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Another Judgment.
Surely if you see your brother stealing from someone, or committing fornication, or polluting themselves with Idols, or eating unclean foods, it would be the utmost Love towards him, to point out that the God of the Bible, that Jesus told us to worship, Esteems these works of man "As Wrong" or "Unrighteous".
WE would not "Judge" each other, but certainly we should be able to Judge between God's definition of right and wrong and share God's definition with a brother. After all, true Faith and respect is from the heart. As Paul also teaches, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Notice Paul didn't say, "Let every man create his own definition of righteousness".
If having milk on the table makes meat unclean in a brother's mind, or if he believes all meat is unclean and only eats herbs, to him it is unclean. There is no unrighteousness committed here. Don't cause this brother grief over such a thing by judging him.
Paul isn't saying, or even implying, that the "weak in faith" should be allowed to walk in unrighteous. Not here, and not anywhere in the Bible.
Keep in mind that there is nothing that would point towards the OT dietary laws being health reasons. In fact, I have eaten pork and not gotten sick. The Bible also does not adress sugar, so it would have been considered unclean in the OT law. It was not, of course, sugar did not exist there yet, but even for vegan things, some foods are less good than others. See also Genesis 9:3.Rom. 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:
This is of course true. A maggot or swine or snail didn't make itself unclean for food. They were created by God for a purpose, but some things that were created was not created for men to eat. Paul, whose faith was great, knew and understood this by the Teaching of the Lord's Christ regarding how disobedience and lust for evil things comes from within, not from without. And of course, if God Esteemed something was clean, or unclean, Paul esteemed it the same way as God. Just as if God Esteemed one day above another, then Paul also, in likeminded manner, submitted to God's Judgment, as opposed to his own.
I would 95 % agree, however, it does not match the very subject we are discussing, to say the least.
As far as "unclean foods" are concerned, keep in mind - Acts 10 is a great reference to both the man and the food having been made clean. Could Gentiles live in OT Israel? Of course. Enter the sanctuary? No.
Keep in mind that there is nothing that would point towards the OT dietary laws being health reasons. In fact, I have eaten pork and not gotten sick.
The Bible also does not adress sugar, so it would have been considered unclean in the OT law. It was not, of course, sugar did not exist there yet,
but even for vegan things, some foods are less good than others. See also Genesis 9:3.
I am happy to discuss this chapter, and my post. There is nothing in either which assumes suggests or even implies the assertion in your question.
Would you participate if I opened this topic on a seperate thread - there are heaps of folk who think Romans 14 is about not judging fellow believers...
Hi Studyman,
I am interested in discussion, but the way you present seems to suggest you consider yourself having a superior grasp on truth.
So to help moderate this, I suggest broadening the discussion to include those who are able to give the time to process your claims because my time is limited right now.
However the issue is important as many down through the ages have accepted Romans 14 as teaching the consequences of judging one another.
Now we have an unknown from cyberspace, claiming superior understanding.
So for the sake of folk reading let's start a thread that will attract those able to spend the time weighing your claims.
FYI at this moment I am under the pump with university work so my time is very limited.
But you do have time to reply to my posts, then belittle me for posting them.
Nevertheless, I will not return rude and inconsiderate for rude and inconsiderate. If you post a thread, I will acknowledge the Scriptures you actually post, and will discuss what you actually say. Because I enjoy when others do the same for me.
This has no relation to food. In fact, it is a childish argument. Friend, are you a blood Israelite? I do not think so. There is no way to practice Judaism anymore without the temple. Like it or not, while gentiles were able to live in OT Israel, they were underprivileged in comparison to the blood Israelites. Moses was not wrong, but he was only delivering what he been revealed. That was all. God could have delivered everything right from the beginning even to Adam and Eve. He however didn't. Why not? Well, only He knows.I have stolen for others in my youth, committed adultery, and lied and yet I didn't get sick either. And yet, if I continue in these transgressions, I will not enter the Kingdom of God. And what difference does it really make if I don't agree with God's Judgments regarding these things? Can I say in God's Name, "Nope, I really like fornication from the heart, so I'm going to continue to fornicate"?
Would this not be the "old man and his deeds" which are "corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;" that must be crucified, to be replaced by "putting on" the New man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."? (Eph. 4)
Would it matter if the women were all really pretty? Or that a lot of other folks liked to fornicate as well? I think you would agree that "fornication" is not unclean of itself. It is "unclean" because God esteemed it as unclean. And it isn't the pretty woman walking by me that defiles me, Yes? But the Lusts from within my heart to partake of that which God Deems as unclean, this defiles a man, Yes. Whether the Unclean thing feels good, or looks good to our flesh, doesn't matter in the case disobedience, in my view?
Exactly. I wonder how someone can believe "all" in verses like Romans 14:2 did not mean all. It is amazing.Wow...
I must have hit a nerve...
You misunderstand me completely.
I am hoping to encourage others to respond to your well woven theology simply because the readers deserve to hear alternative interpretations so they can judge for themselves whether Romand 14 is about not judging one another or not.
This has no relation to food. In fact, it is a childish argument. Friend, are you a blood Israelite? I do not think so. There is no way to practice Judaism anymore without the temple.
Like it or not, while gentiles were able to live in OT Israel, they were underprivileged in comparison to the blood Israelites.
Moses was not wrong, but he was only delivering what he been revealed. That was all. God could have delivered everything right from the beginning even to Adam and Eve. He however didn't.
Why not? Well, only He knows.
I too attempt to avoid eating pork, BUT I cannot condemn others for it.
If you think eating pork is like getting drunk or adultery, you have a strange worldview, to say the least.
Exactly. I wonder how someone can believe "all" in verses like Romans 14:2 did not mean all. It is amazing.
Simple as that, brother. He was not. We cannot celebrate the feasts today without animal sacrifices.
The same thing could be said by you, attempting to mix Christianity and Judaism.I know you are only promoting what you have been taught by this world's religions. And it is clear you don't really want to examine and discuss the scriptures posted.
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