Why Theistic Evolution?

wblastyn · Aug 25, 2003

kiwichristian said:
Genesis 1 is about creation of earth, whereas Genesis 2 is about creation of man.

Genesis 1 says man and woman were created last, Genesis 2 says there were no men to till the ground, etc then God created man, then animals then woman.

fragmentsofdreams · Aug 26, 2003

kiwichristian said:
Genesis 1 is about creation of earth, whereas Genesis 2 is about creation of man.

As wblastyn points out, the order of Creation in the two accounts are different. This is not a problem if they are two seperate Creation stories included because together they give a more complete understanding of God. It is a problem if one views them as historical accounts. Either animals were created before man or in response to man. They cannot be both.

Serapha · Aug 26, 2003

wblastyn said:
Genesis 1 says man and woman were created last, Genesis 2 says there were no men to till the ground, etc then God created man, then animals then woman.

Where does the book of Genesis say that?

i.e. God created man, then [God created] animals then [God created] woman.

Chronological proofs please... from Genesis 2

~malaka~

Serapha · Aug 26, 2003

fragmentsofdreams said:
As wblastyn points out, the order of Creation in the two accounts are different. This is not a problem if they are two seperate Creation stories included because together they give a more complete understanding of God. It is a problem if one views them as historical accounts. Either animals were created before man or in response to man. They cannot be both.

Where does the book of Genesis tell you that animals were created "in response" to man. ...

which "in response" is a term that needs clarifying... it appears to be a "gray area" could you be specific in identifying what "in response" to man is?

~malaka~

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Aug 27, 2003

Malaka said:
Where does the book of Genesis say that?

i.e. God created man, then [God created] animals then [God created] woman.

Chronological proofs please... from Genesis 2

~malaka~

Quite clear.

God makes man.

Then God says "Hmmmm - man needs a companion. I know - I'll make him one"

So God makes the animals.

God then says "All very well, but not really suitable. So, what shall I do?"

Then God says "Aha! Got it!" and makes the woman.

The "proof" for the chronology is in the stated motivation of God in creating.

wblastyn · Aug 27, 2003

Genesis 2:
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

fragmentsofdreams · Aug 27, 2003

Malaka said:
Where does the book of Genesis tell you that animals were created "in response" to man. ...

which "in response" is a term that needs clarifying... it appears to be a "gray area" could you be specific in identifying what "in response" to man is?

~malaka~

Genesis 2

18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

God creates man, sees that he is lonely, and creates the animals.

Genesis 1

20-21: God creates sea creatures and birds.

24-25: God creates land creatures.

26-27: God creates man.

Gen 1: Animals then man
Gen 2: Man then animals

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Quite clear.

God makes man.

Then God says "Hmmmm - man needs a companion. I know - I'll make him one"

So God makes the animals.

God then says "All very well, but not really suitable. So, what shall I do?"

Then God says "Aha! Got it!" and makes the woman.

The "proof" for the chronology is in the stated motivation of God in creating.

My friend,

That is simply your statement. Before I posted the statement concerning the chronological order, I did a search of at least 10 translations of the Bible, includes 3 modern translations, and what I search for was.... "then"... and you know what, none of the translations said,

THEN God made man

THEN God made woman

THEN God made animals.

None of the 10 said it. What translation do you use that says, THEN God made animals?

~malaka~

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

wblastyn said:
Genesis 2:
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Excuse me, could you isolate down the chronology....

THEN God made...

THEN God made...

THEN God made...

Now I can add "THEN" in and MAKE it say that.

~malaka~

wblastyn · Aug 27, 2003

Malaka said:
Excuse me, could you isolate down the chronology....

THEN God made...

THEN God made...

THEN God made...

Now I can add "THEN" in and MAKE it say that.

~malaka~

It doesn't have to say then, read it and it says God created man, however man was alone so God created animals, but the animals were unsuitable so He created woman.

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

fragmentsofdreams said:
Genesis 2

18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

God creates man, sees that he is lonely, and creates the animals.

Genesis 1

20-21: God creates sea creatures and birds.

24-25: God creates land creatures.

26-27: God creates man.

Gen 1: Animals then man
Gen 2: Man then animals

19 The Lord God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air.

When does this verse say that the animals were formed?

~malaka~

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

wblastyn said:
It doesn't have to say then, read it and it says God created man, however man was alone so God created animals, but the animals were unsuitable so He created woman.

So, as in another posting which went unanswered...

animals were created in response to man????

Where does it say that animals were created after man? ... there is no "so"... there is no THEN... you add that in to MAKE it say a conflicting report.

~malaka~

Serapha · Aug 27, 2003

There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

Genesis 1 says the animals were created on the sixth day, before God created man.

Genesis 2:19 does not say that God made man and then made the animals. It says God made the animals for the man... not a contradiction but a complimentary statement.

~malaka~

Vance · Aug 27, 2003

Malaka:

2:7 says that God created Man
2:19 says he created animals

A literal, plain reading indicates that he created man first, then animals. Are you stating that we should not follow this plain, straightforward reading, but instead look for a less straightforward and simple reading so that it fits with other things we believe?

As far as the the "in response to" argument, that is based on verse 18, which says that God saw that man was alone and this was not good, and so God decided to make him a helper. Then the very next verse indicates that He made all the animals, Adam named them, etc, and THEN verse 20 concludes "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." A plain, literal reading would be that none were found *among the animals*.

Regardless, you can see that conforming the two tellings of the Creation story involves some interpretive efforts and that a simple, plain reading will not do it.

obediah001 · Aug 27, 2003

There are not 2 creations here it is simply filling in more of the details.

givenright · Aug 27, 2003

SO WHERE DOES THE DINASOURS COME IN?? God made Adam and Eve, then Animals, maybe so we could use them as food.

Still keeping my Lipton
jennifer
adoption search and reunion
http://givenright.tripod.com

obediah001 · Aug 27, 2003

Dinosaurs as a word was created in 1840, preevius to hat tdate they were in history called dragons & there are literally thousands of histories of them. Look also in the Bible book of Job ch. 38 for leviathan & Behemouth; the description of both fit the bill of what we today call dinosaurs. Job obviously saw them as God would not of asked him to consider them.

Karl - Liberal Backslider · Aug 28, 2003

Malaka said:
There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

Genesis 1 says the animals were created on the sixth day, before God created man.

Genesis 2:19 does not say that God made man and then made the animals. It says God made the animals for the man... not a contradiction but a complimentary statement.

~malaka~

Malaka - yes, you can make a convoluted reading to harmonise the two accounts. But the plain readings of them are contradictory. I prefer to engage with the text as it is, rather than twisting it into an a priori preconception of complete harmony.

fragmentsofdreams · Aug 28, 2003

Malaka said:
19 The Lord God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air.

When does this verse say that the animals were formed?

~malaka~

"Formed" indicates that the action took place at that moment. If they had already been formed, it would use the "had formed" tense.

fragmentsofdreams · Aug 28, 2003

obediah001 said:
There are not 2 creations here it is simply filling in more of the details.

It cannot be simply filling in details because they contradict each other.

Why Theistic Evolution?

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