Why the bitterness?

True, that's why I asked that people would be nice. So no, it wasn't directed at you, the order of the post behind yours was simply a matter of timing.

razzelflabben said:

I didn't say that they did contidict one another but rather asked why in so many churches, the teaching on giving ends with the old testament tithe. (old law) God expects so much more from our giving than 10% when we study church history, we find the the tithe was more than 10% and was a tax. The church no longer has a tax placed on it's members (to my knowledge) yet the church preaches tithe (tax) and falls very short of the NT teaching of giving beyond and for the purpose of equality. (new law) Why this discrepancy in teaching from the church (not a discrpancy from God and scripture)

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a quick note for the off-topic topic...
tithe means "tenth".
how can a tenth be more than a tenth?
and the first tithe (by abraham? before the law) was a love offering unto the Lord, which is what we are back to in the NT.
my thoughts, anyways.
Lynne

Svt4Him said:

True, that's why I asked that people would be nice. So no, it wasn't directed at you, the order of the post behind yours was simply a matter of timing.

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Thanks, we have been experiencing a lot of emotions around this household lately and as hard as I try to keep emotions out of these discussions, I find they sometimes creep in. Your words encouraged me and I shall try to keep that encouragement all day, dispite the odds, for God is the great equalizer of all odds.

LynneClomina said:

a quick note for the off-topic topic...
tithe means "tenth".
how can a tenth be more than a tenth?
and the first tithe (by abraham? before the law) was a love offering unto the Lord, which is what we are back to in the NT.
my thoughts, anyways.
Lynne

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My husband is a history and can explain it much better than I can. When he has a chance, hopefully by tomorrow, I will ask him to explain it so that it can make sense. So as not to cloud the issue, I will ask him to pm you with the information.

I have spent the last several days examining my ability to crusify self, flesh. I have come to the conclusion that it requires two actions. One the action of faith, or belief in the power of the Holy Spirit. It seems that this is one place that the charismatic church excells and often is over looked by the other church bodies. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that allows me to overcome my sin, the sinful flesh. The desires of the flesh. This is however, only half of the battle as I see it. The other half is trust. God says to "trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not in your own understanding," (Razzel Paraph) If I cannot trust the Lord in every aspect of my life, then, I am still living in the flesh. This is where the majority of charismatics that I talk to fail. God is still supreme ruler. It is trust in the Commander and Cheif (God) that is required. If my fears, lay in what is going on in my life, then there is no trust. If I am only interested in being free from this worlds cares and problems, then I am not trusting God with my present and I am living in the flesh rather than the spirit. These are indeed difficult things to hear and internalize, and are an ongoing learning process. So it would seem that the next step would be to see where I line up with the fruits of the spirit. For that would seem to be the only way to determine how much faith and trust I really do have. The fruit of the spirit being a kind of measuring stick for us each and every one.

I realize that this does not answer the question addressed but it does help us to determine whether or not we are worthy to question anothers teachings. For there, we can determine how to address the false teachers among us. God tells us to remove the plank from our own eye before working on the splinter in someone elses. Doesn't much of the bitterness stem from unfounded accusations from a people who think they have all the answers but in reality, have only a very few.

As one who has been deceived and hurt spiritually by false teachings/teachers I think it is so important to be aware that deception is out there even among the church, the elect. We don't have go overboard about it but we are told to be watchful. And I grew up in a good Christian home and would have said it could never happen to me.

I wonder if a lot of people who speak against ministries have been deceived themselves so find it difficult to stand by and say nothing if something seems in error to them because they don't want people to go through the same destruction they did.

God says to love one another, are we loving our fellow brothers and sisters if we allow them to be under wrong teaching? And wrong teaching isn't always blatant, it often caters to our own selfish desires so is what we want to hear. If we don't check out sermons to see if they match up with the Bible we're asking for trouble.

Unfortunately the problem of false teachings/teachers is not going to go away, may the Lord grant us wisdom in handling this in the church.

foundingrace said:

As one who has been deceived and hurt spiritually by false teachings/teachers I think it is so important to be aware that deception is out there even among the church, the elect. We don't have go overboard about it but we are told to be watchful. And I grew up in a good Christian home and would have said it could never happen to me.

I wonder if a lot of people who speak against ministries have been deceived themselves so find it difficult to stand by and say nothing if something seems in error to them because they don't want people to go through the same destruction they did.

God says to love one another, are we loving our fellow brothers and sisters if we allow them to be under wrong teaching? And wrong teaching isn't always blatant, it often caters to our own selfish desires so is what we want to hear. If we don't check out sermons to see if they match up with the Bible we're asking for trouble.

Unfortunately the problem of false teachings/teachers is not going to go away, may the Lord grant us wisdom in handling this in the church.

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Even when exposing false teachings and teachers, we must do so in love, this can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit.

razzelflabben said:

Even when exposing false teachings and teachers, we must do so in love, this can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Yes, totally agree about the love! sorry I came across without saying that. Thats why the need for wisdom to know whats best to do/not to do - sometimes its hard to know whats loving in different situations (for me anyway).

And also totally agree about the power of the Holy Spirit, its a spiritual thing not flesh and blood etc with deception. Needs lots of praying and ultimately its up to God, through His Holy Spirit to act as He does in goodness.
***

Its constantly amazing to me that He can cut through all the rubbish and pull me out of the tar and slime so I start standing on solid ground again bit by bit! His timing is perfect. Jesus is my rock!!!!

At one point I was in despair at my utter weakness and susceptibility in this area. I had fallen and was following a spiritual path that was not Godly and was hating it. I had become exhausted from fighting to hold onto His truth, and fallen back into cold murky water because I couldn't hold on.

In desperation I sat with God ashamed and lost in failure, not even trusting my own mind to be able to discern what His truth was. I was, afterall, dust, human, weak and had been deceived before, in a church!!! So I knew, even if I didn't want to, I would lose Him at some point in the future. I felt so alone, desperate, really afraid of the future and where I would end up. I wasn't stong enough, and never would be.


And He said to me:
'No matter how far you go, I will always bring you back to me'.

It is He who holds onto me.

When I am weak He is strong.
He is an amazing God.
Anyway better go and stop babbling
God bless

My observation of the plethora of critics of christian ministries is that the critics very seldom use scripture in context as the basis of their criticisms. However, every member of the body has a right to speak as it says in 1 corinthians 14, one has hymn, one a psalm, one a prophetic word. But it also says let the words spoken be judged.
The basis for judging what is said is The word of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit is not divided against the Holy Spirit. So I judge the critics according to the word and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
To my thinking, the bitterness is a completely seperate issue. I think the things said against minitries can stand or fall on their own merits. I don't have to discredit the messanger.
I have a lot of respect for the ministires that have taken the stance of not defending themsleves against their critics. They just continue on about their business.
The bible says every word we speak we will have to give an account. If the critics think that they have a message from God for thew church, then I say let them speak it forth and let the body of Christ judge what they say. It crosses the line when it goes from speaking a word to a crusade of high pressure tactics.

foundingrace said:

Yes, totally agree about the love! sorry I came across without saying that. Thats why the need for wisdom to know whats best to do/not to do - sometimes its hard to know whats loving in different situations (for me anyway).

And also totally agree about the power of the Holy Spirit, its a spiritual thing not flesh and blood etc with deception. Needs lots of praying and ultimately its up to God, through His Holy Spirit to act as He does in goodness.
***

Its constantly amazing to me that He can cut through all the rubbish and pull me out of the tar and slime so I start standing on solid ground again bit by bit! His timing is perfect. Jesus is my rock!!!!

At one point I was in despair at my utter weakness and susceptibility in this area. I had fallen and was following a spiritual path that was not Godly and was hating it. I had become exhausted from fighting to hold onto His truth, and fallen back into cold murky water because I couldn't hold on.

In desperation I sat with God ashamed and lost in failure, not even trusting my own mind to be able to discern what His truth was. I was, afterall, dust, human, weak and had been deceived before, in a church!!! So I knew, even if I didn't want to, I would lose Him at some point in the future. I felt so alone, desperate, really afraid of the future and where I would end up. I wasn't stong enough, and never would be.


And He said to me:
'No matter how far you go, I will always bring you back to me'.

It is He who holds onto me.

When I am weak He is strong.
He is an amazing God.
Anyway better go and stop babbling
God bless

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What a wonderful testimony to God's strength and love. As I read your post, I was reminded how harsh Jesus was at times to the false teachers. The master of Love was often veiwed as lacking love and kindness. Harsh words do not equal lack of love. If we correct a teaching, from the Bible, and speak that teaching with love, we cannot worry about how others percieve our words, only how God percieves us. If we remain silent, others might fall into the deception as you did.

Yitzchak said:

My observation of the plethora of critics of christian ministries is that the critics very seldom use scripture in context as the basis of their criticisms. However, every member of the body has a right to speak as it says in 1 corinthians 14, one has hymn, one a psalm, one a prophetic word. But it also says let the words spoken be judged.
The basis for judging what is said is The word of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit. the Holy Spirit is not divided against the Holy Spirit. So I judge the critics according to the word and the witness of the Holy Spirit.
To my thinking, the bitterness is a completely seperate issue. I think the things said against minitries can stand or fall on their own merits. I don't have to discredit the messanger.
I have a lot of respect for the ministires that have taken the stance of not defending themsleves against their critics. They just continue on about their business.
The bible says every word we speak we will have to give an account. If the critics think that they have a message from God for thew church, then I say let them speak it forth and let the body of Christ judge what they say. It crosses the line when it goes from speaking a word to a crusade of high pressure tactics.

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Two thoughts, isn't that why we should do the studying rather than to count on the teachings of the teachers and thier proof of what they say?

Secondly, We will be judged by what we say, but we will also be judged by what we don't say. It would seem that this would be an additional reason to study the word of God for ourselves, and then live our lives in such a way that we imitate Jesus Christ in word and deed.

razzelflabben said:

Two thoughts, isn't that why we should do the studying rather than to count on the teachings of the teachers and thier proof of what they say?

Secondly, We will be judged by what we say, but we will also be judged by what we don't say. It would seem that this would be an additional reason to study the word of God for ourselves, and then live our lives in such a way that we imitate Jesus Christ in word and deed.

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Yes. I agree with both your statements. There is a proper balance neccesary. Being teachable and therefore allowing teachers in the body of Christ to edify us with their gifts is good but the danger of making that teacher "an idol" or a subsitutue for our own relationship with the Lord is also present. Teachers have a biblical place in the church. We should not elevate them too high or disrespect them or the gifts God has given them either.

Jim B said:

Perhaps the bitterness comes because so many scams are perpetrated on God’s people and so many scandals have rocked the church. It has jaded some people and created mistrust among believers. It is wrong, of course, to be hypercritical of all highly visible ministries (“big” ministries as you called them) because of the crimes of a few, but I also believe it is just as wrong to abandon honest discernment gullibly swallow everything these “big ministries” are trying to sell.

Personally, I am distrustful of men whose fame and reputation are dependent on my offering and I am appalled when they take money from widows to “consume on their own lusts,” drive luxury cars at the expense of widows, and live in luxury homes off the donations of people on fixed incomes. Nor do I always believe their press reports of healings, miracles, missionary efforts, etc. and feel I have a God-given right to expect some sort of documentation.

Sigh.

I may be jaded. But just give me a simple pastor and a devoted church with their community at heart and I’m satisfied. I’ll leave world evangelism to the Holy Spirit.

\o/

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I couldn't have said it better myself - Great post.