Why suffer?

Just_a_Joe said:

There are many many reasons people follow a religion. However, humans are highly socially-dependant creatures. Therefore, the number one reason until today is, that is the religion of your surrounding society or community. It is slowly changing with the ever increasing wanders of modern technology - communications and transportation, plus mass migrations.

I proposed a very general overview of attitudes towards suffering within Christianity, from my personal opinion.

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No offense, but I'm really going to take that with a grain of salt because you don't even go to church, nor are you really around Christians.

sparkle123 said:

hi all. I am a baby Christian (a thirty-something baby!) and am curious to know about suffering and Christianity. Do Christians want to get rid of suffering in this life? What is the proper attitude toward our personal suffering? It seems like a lot of people lose faith over this, which is sad--so then how should a Christian look at the inevitable suffering life will bring? Is it ever redemptive? I have been reading on this and am curious for different viewpoints. Thank you for answering.

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http://subsplash.com/faithpca/v/e1c7a2a

ToBeLoved said:

No offense, but I'm really going to take that with a grain of salt because you don't even go to church, nor are you really around Christians.

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I said nothing contrary to fact. The religion a person will follow mostly depends on the religion of their family, community, country, etc.

Hebrews 12:5-11
[5]And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, “My child, don’t make light of the lord’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you.
[6]For the lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
[7]As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
[8]If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.
[9]Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?
[10]For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
[11]No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.

God brings dark threads into our lives for good, not for evil.
Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow him.
The psalmist tells us that we will walk through the valley.
Yet, Jesus promises that he will be with us always.

If Christ took my sin upon himself can I complain if I go through struggles? Is the servant greater than the master?
No, we put on the armor and we walk through suffering and sorrows by faith.
God is good, all the time and all the time, God is good.

Suffering is part of life. Being Christian doesn't me we're then exempted from it.
The only difference is that we know God will always be with us through both good and hard time.
As much as we need to try our best, we would also need to place our burden onto Him. With that, suffering/hardship would be easier to go through as we know God is good, all the time.

Just_a_Joe said:

I said nothing contrary to fact. The religion a person will follow mostly depends on the religion of their family, community, country, etc.

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You need to get a clue as to why people believe what they believe.

If this were true, Christianity would not be going down in numbers.

Short. Sighted.

ToBeLoved said:

You need to get a clue as to why people believe what they believe.

If this were true, Christianity would not be going down in numbers.

Short. Sighted.

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If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely grow up to be a Muslim, in Thailand - a Buddhist, in China - an atheist, in India - a Hindu, in Greece - a Christian, etc. Then if we take certain regions of those countries, then the predominant religion might be different, for example in southern Thailand or northwest China (among certain minority ethnic groups) it would be Muslim etc.

It's a well-known indisputable fact. I really don't understand why you keep arguing with this.

As I said, there are many many reasons people accept this or that faith, or this or that denomination or sect within a religion, if they make that decision in their adult years. Children usually pick up their religion from family and close community and usually stay with it for life.

It's basic psychology. Your brain is mostly wired until you're 5 years of age (brain neuron active growth and fixed synaptic connections between them). Your worldview is mostly formed before you are 14. Plasticity of the brain after that is decreased, the foundation has been laid, you build on it.

Mass conversions from one religion to another are truly rare, and usually happened in history as forced conversion by a foreign power or local rulers (i.e. the spreading of Christianity in Western and Eastern Europe, of Islam in Arabia, Middle East or Indonesia etc). That's why the number one dependency of the current statistics of people holding this or that faith is demographics, or birth rate within those religious communities.

That's why the religions that had a "head start", i.e. were created in the far past, and at one point of time were accepted as the state religion of a big country or empire, have larger numbers of followers today than the religions that were created later in history and/or didn't enjoy the support of powerful governments.

Distribution of religions among the world's population is therefore more a matter of politics than real free choice of people. Only today we are entering the time of a wider-spread relative plurality of religions.

However, if we analyze the quality, and not the quantity of religious adepts, it's a whole different story, as many of today's Christians, for example, are quite nominal. Many of the so-called Christians in much of the developed world are secular atheists more than anything. Go to Norway, for example, and talk to people who assign themselves to the Lutheran Church of Norway, what their views are in reality. Nothing Christian.

Just_a_Joe said:

If you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would most likely grow up to be a Muslim, in Thailand - a Buddhist, in China - an atheist, in India - a Hindu, in Greece - a Christian, etc. Then if we take certain regions of those countries, then the predominant religion might be different, for example in southern Thailand or northwest China (among certain minority ethnic groups) it would be Muslim etc.

It's a well-known indisputable fact. I really don't understand why you keep arguing with this.

As I said, there are many many reasons people accept this or that faith, or this or that denomination or sect within a religion, if they make that decision in their adult years. Children usually pick up their religion from family and close community and usually stay with it for life.

It's basic psychology. Your brain is mostly wired until you're 5 years of age (brain neuron active growth and fixed synaptic connections between them). Your worldview is mostly formed before you are 14. Plasticity of the brain after that is decreased, the foundation has been laid, you build on it.

Mass conversions from one religion to another are truly rare, and usually happened in history as forced conversion by a foreign power or local rulers (i.e. the spreading of Christianity in Western and Eastern Europe, of Islam in Arabia, Middle East or Indonesia etc). That's why the number one dependency of the current statistics of people holding this or that faith is demographics, or birth rate within those religious communities.

That's why the religions that had a "head start", i.e. were created in the far past, and at one point of time were accepted as the state religion of a big country or empire, have larger numbers of followers today than the religions that were created later in history and/or didn't enjoy the support of powerful governments.

Distribution of religions among the world's population is therefore more a matter of politics than real free choice of people. Only today we are entering the time of a wider-spread relative plurality of religions.

However, if we analyze the quality, and not the quantity of religious adepts, it's a whole different story, as many of today's Christians, for example, are quite nominal. Many of the so-called Christians in much of the developed world are secular atheists more than anything. Go to Norway, for example, and talk to people who assign themselves to the Lutheran Church of Norway, what their views are in reality. Nothing Christian.

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What do you think this verse means or is saying?
1 Corinthians 2:13-16
13 And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.

16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

ToBeLoved said:

You need to get a clue as to why people believe what they believe.

If this were true, Christianity would not be going down in numbers.

Short. Sighted.

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I think I get our misunderstanding. Reading all your posts above, I think you want to draw my attention to what people believe in. That's not what I was talking about. I took the "why" question to mean, "how they came to their faith". So we are talking about two completely different things.

By why you mean, which thought process assures them their faith is true, in other words, their personal epistemology.

Well, that is a HUGE number one question in faith for any person, I think... Not too many options in this area, but if we go into specifics, it'll be one billion answers for one billion believers.

ToBeLoved said:

What do you think this verse means or is saying?
1 Corinthians 2:13-16
13 And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.

16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

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I have to look up the verse in my Greek New Testament, I'll have lunch and then write some thoughts on that. I struggle in English and never read the Bible in English in my life, except hearing it read outloud or quoted otherwise. When I quote Biblical verses from memory in English, I have to simultaneously translate them in my mind (always a challenge), which sometimes sounds correct to English-speakers, sometimes a little off.

To me, suffering goes back to free will. Adam and Eve wanted free will, and so suffering is the consequence they paid, and the price their descendants - that is, we - must pay. That doesn't mean God wants us to suffer. It's just the human condition. It's what we asked for. This is harsh, and not exactly a comforting thought. But that's the way I see it. God can, however, grant us strength for enduring pain, and ease the burden. We also have the ability to learn something and become more resilient through hardship.

Christianity is not the easy way; it's far easier to be hedonistic. To be Christian brings with it certain responsibilities. Being human, we are all flawed, and we still fall short at times. But we still have to try.

People seek religion for countless reasons. Comfort and relief from suffering is just one of them.

Just_a_Joe said:

I think I get our misunderstanding. Reading all your posts above, I think you want to draw my attention to what people believe in. That's not what I was talking about. I took the "why" question to mean, "how they came to their faith". So we are talking about two completely different things.

By why you mean, which thought process assures them their faith is true, in other words, their personal epistemology.

Well, that is a HUGE number one question in faith for any person, I think... Not too many options in this area, but if we go into specifics, it'll be one billion answers for one billion believers.

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The Bible tells us how one can be assured that their faith is true and that they have salvation. Do you want to hear the answer and then will you debate that topic.

Just_a_Joe said:

I have to look up the verse in my Greek New Testament, I'll have lunch and then write some thoughts on that. I struggle in English and never read the Bible in English in my life, except hearing it read outloud or quoted otherwise. When I quote Biblical verses from memory in English, I have to simultaneously translate them in my mind (always a challenge), which sometimes sounds correct to English-speakers, sometimes a little off.

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Ok, sounds good. I'll check back this afternoon.

Poppyseed78 said:

it's far easier to be hedonistic.

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Well, most Christians I know are very, very hedonistic people. I think there shouldn't be generalization about such a large and hugely variable group of people. Depending on denomination, geography, sincerity and strength of faith etc.

Just_a_Joe said:

Well, most Christians I know are very, very hedonistic people. I think there shouldn't be generalization about such a large and hugely variable group of people. Depending on denomination, geography, sincerity and strength of faith etc.

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I'm not talking about the people. I'm talking about what Jesus taught. The righteous way is narrow. The way of the world is broad. Christians make mistakes, as does everyone.

If you're looking at people to find truth and consistency, you're not looking at the right thing. Christ is unwavering and unchanging.

Just_a_Joe said:

Well, most Christians I know are very, very hedonistic people. I think there shouldn't be generalization about such a large and hugely variable group of people. Depending on denomination, geography, sincerity and strength of faith etc.

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Did you just talk about generalization and labeling people?

You need to become saved brother. Then we can discuss spiritual things.

Go talk to Jesus, I'll wait..........

ToBeLoved said:

What do you think this verse means or is saying?
1 Corinthians 2:13-16
13 And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.

16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

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Oh this beautiful polis of Corinthos, this major strategic and trade port in those old days for Greece. So this Jewish man Paulos, the self-proclaimed messenger of Jesus the Annointed, was writing this profound letter to this Greek church some time in the I century A.D. So interesting! Living history before our own eyes! With trembling fingers do I read those sacred pages.

Oh, Paulos, Paulos. I picture you as if you are alive, as my friend or brother. An older Jewish man who had been trough a lot. Full of God's wisdom and humble love. Here he takes a papyrus scroll and a feather pen and starts scribing the Greek letters, not his first language that he mastered so eloquently. A truly gifted, learned man.

I don't like reading passages. I love reading whole books start to finish. It's like a love letter, you read it from A to Z hungrily, absorbing every word, every thought, every feeling. You cry and laugh, rejoice and grieve with the author. Only then you can fully and properly understand the purpose, the context, the meaning of this logos.

So I opened the pages of this epistle and started reading from the very beginning. I almost remember all of the New Testament by heart, well, many many verses. Nevertheless, it never tires me to read and re-read. Pure pleasure, learning and inspiration always! The sacred words for the countless generations of countless people all over the globe. Timeless treasure...

A very personal letter. I almost feel ashamed to be reading it today. He is addressing the people he loves, laboured hard for, taught with tears, endured unimaginable sufferings for their sake, invested the highest dedication to. They are his own children, his brothers and sisters, the only close family that he ever had.

So every word is filled with love, edification, rebuke, care - expression of gentle affection of a celestial magnitude. He writes straight and honestly. No double talk, no games, no vanity. To the point. Harsh at times. But for their highest good! For the eternity of their souls and the souls of those that the Corinthian believers are to witness to. He covers a wide variety subjects, everything that he thinks is important to teach them, to comfort them, to correct them.

The passage that you quoted is well understood in the context of chapters 1 and 2, or everything that precedes these verses.

He says that he knows that the Corinthians aren't the most prominent or educated members of the sophisticated Greek society. Theirs isn't a church of doctors of divinity and leading seminary graduates, not of government officials or philharmonic orchestra conductors. No. They are but simple men, women and children. The farmers, the cleaners, the mailmen and cashiers. What a bunch of "losers" among the height of civilization of the day! It's as this far from noble gathering of former low-lifes and freed slaves, modest school drop outs and retired military officers. They are not educated in the Jewish traditions either.

The Jews demand signs! Miracles! Proof of authority! It's the cornerstone of their religious thinking. YHWH had shown signs to all the prophets. No faith given, unless new doctrine is evidently proven. Where is God? Show Him to me! The Greeks demand depth of scientific education, beautiful complex theories and hypotheses. Like those volumes of hard teaching from the epicureans, the stoics - the smartest scholars and scientists of those times.

The apostle Paul goes on to assure them in the most firm terms possible, that they are not deserving ridicule or bullying from the outside most developed European society. No! They are the salt of the earth, they are the elect, the adopted children of God Almighty. The doctrine they received is a different kind of wisdom. Not human. Not intended to the human mind to be understood and held by. Metaphysical, channeled directly from God and by God. Expressed not in complex wordings of the worldly teachers, but in clear, powerful but simple and highly symbolic terms. It is not a shortcoming of this teaching, it's clarity and simplicity, but it's greatest strength. God reveals a great mystery, which is like an endless stacking doll - the deeper you study, the more you discover.

The Corinthians are capable of hearing, understanding, holding and passing it only by the power of God manifested in the form of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ the Lord residing in them. They are the living, breathing temples of the Holy Spirit of God! Moreover, God has chosen such seemingly unimpressive folk on purpose, in order to shame those who think highly of themselves. Yes! God wants to destroy the glory of men, so that only His glory is established once and for all - a glory not based on any human achievement or merit.

Paul introduces therefore a new notion of a carnal and spiritual man. A great philosophic concept of two types of people. Christians and non-Christians. Here's the sharp division line, a tall fence. You belong to either one of the two groups, nothing else. And being spiritual is the highest anointment on earth, in this Universe.

You, Corinthians, are the spiritual people. Therefore, you have the ability bestowed on you from above to understand the things of God. They are spiritual. A different kind of perception, not your carnal, or physical, or sensual understanding and knowledge. But a mysterious, most powerful knowing of the essence of all things. Miracle!

You hear with the ears of your newly-born spirit, a new creation, revitalized by the quickening of the Holy Spirit of God.

I absolutely love love love love the Bible. It's a unique book like no other. The Greek Orthodox church, the original church coming directly from Christ, gave the world this book as the Canon. What a gift!

Thank you for asking me to share my thoughts on this passage. The Bible always touches me to the deepest corners of my heart. SORRY FOR THE LONGEST POST EVER!!! I was really moved and inspired by this book. I love it. All of it. Every part of it. And all other books of the canonical Bible. Love it. Love it. Love it.

ToBeLoved said:

Did you just talk about generalization and labeling people?

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It's best to avoid to generalize, especially when making such gross generalizations

ToBeLoved said:

You need to become saved brother. Then we can discuss spiritual things.

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OK. I hear you. I am already saved. Not exactly in the sense that I understand you to imply, though...

ToBeLoved said:

Go talk to Jesus, I'll wait..........

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Hmmm... I am not sure Jesus is a historical figure, though it's a possibility. Not being sure even that Yeshua Mashiah existed as a real person, I cannot talk to Him. I can read about Him, I can talk to other people about Him.

I have surely talked to Him many-many-many times, I don't know if I was talking to Him or somebody else or to myself.

It all really doesn't matter. I live, I love, I am happy. That's all there is for me to life. Need nothing more.

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Thank you for your persistence to talk to me. I really like it. But please understand, that I'm here to discuss certain ideas, as equals. If you refuse to talk on topic, but most arrogantly insist on pressing me "to be saved" before I deserve the right to even talk to you, I will simply click to ignore you. It's not fair.

Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 9:20, that you have to find the right way to talk to every person on equal and respectful terms, no matter their ethnic or religious background. If you take such insulting, exclusivist and discriminating stand with everyone, you're not going to be finding appreciating hearers.

You've been warned! If you care at all.

Poppyseed78 said:

I'm not talking about the people. I'm talking about what Jesus taught. The righteous way is narrow. The way of the world is broad. Christians make mistakes, as does everyone.

If you're looking at people to find truth and consistency, you're not looking at the right thing. Christ is unwavering and unchanging.

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OK. I agree.

Just_a_Joe said:

Hmmm... I am not sure Jesus is a historical figure, though it's a possibility. Not being sure even that Yeshua Mashiah existed as a real person, I cannot talk to Him. I can read about Him, I can talk to other people about Him.

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Well a famous Roman historian wrote about Jesus and so have others. So it is a very good bet that Jesus is real and existed. Not only did he write about Jesus but the apostles also as well as the crucifiction and other events. It is not really much of an option did Jesus exist. it's well documented friend.

So again, you should go talk to Jesus about eternity. I'll wait.................